Just a random thought about the Berryessa murders

Cecelia Shepard and Bryan Hartnell
Sept. 27, 1969 at Lake Berryessa in Napa County, Cal.
Discussion of definite Zodiac victims Cecelia Shepard and Bryan Hartnell should be posted here

Joined: 23 Feb 2007, 23:25

17 Jan 2018, 22:42 #21

Yep
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csmith
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csmith
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17 Jan 2018, 23:20 #22

Sierra wrote: My opinion:

1) He planned on tying them up and stabbing them, not shooting them. That is why he brought pre-cut lengths of rope.
2) He brought the gun as back-up in case one person ran before he tied them up.
3) If he shot the gun it would have been very loud, although people would not necessarily pay attention to gunshots in an area frequented be hunters and shooters.
4) He followed trough with his original plans.



,
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Agreed, agreed, agreed,  & agreed.
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ratman
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007, 23:52

20 Jan 2018, 07:42 #23

Still believe it was him at Goleta. Too similar for not any other murders like that in the years between. I think he learned from the prior one and corrected. But not entirely- Hartnell survived.
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B217h
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B217h
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22 Jan 2018, 06:46 #24

sandy betts wrote: I agree with DartsinEyes, that gun would have echoed through out that canyon, much louder than their screams for help.The gun was used to control them, he had no plan to shoot, his plan was to stab them. No one other than the fisherman was able to hear those screams, so the screams were not that loud.
I'm surprised that the fisherman could even hear his yells for help. Being stabbed once in the lungs would be enough to make it hard to speak let alone yell after being stabbed 8 times.
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Joined: 06 Sep 2007, 05:00

22 Jan 2018, 07:31 #25

ratman wrote: Still believe it was him at Goleta. Too similar for not any other murders like that in the years between. I think he learned from the prior one and corrected. But not entirely- Hartnell survived.
Ratman...Well when he left they were both alive.  I think Z had to be a bit bummed out.  He went to all that trouble of making his costume, but the two he selected really had no clue about Z.  The symbol on his chest meant nothing to them.  I'm sure he was looking for a huge reaction, and he got nothing for it.  If Cecilia had lived she may have been able to give a very good description of Z.  If Bryan had passed we wouldn't even have known of Z's costume....Z did a thorough job of attempting to kill both, Bryan surviving was really a miracle, having the strength to call out to the fisherman, even Cecilia tried to call out.  I too highly suspect Z for Goleta, but we know there were so many crazies out there back in the day.  I've always thought Z was a seasoned killer before 12/20/68.
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B217h
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22 Jan 2018, 08:00 #26

BayArea60s wrote:
ratman wrote: Still believe it was him at Goleta. Too similar for not any other murders like that in the years between. I think he learned from the prior one and corrected. But not entirely- Hartnell survived.
Ratman...Well when he left they were both alive.  I think Z had to be a bit bummed out.  He went to all that trouble of making his costume, but the two he selected really had no clue about Z.  The symbol on his chest meant nothing to them.  I'm sure he was looking for a huge reaction, and he got nothing for it.  If Cecilia had lived she may have been able to give a very good description of Z.  If Bryan had passed we wouldn't even have known of Z's costume....Z did a thorough job of attempting to kill both, Bryan surviving was really a miracle, having the strength to call out to the fisherman, even Cecilia tried to call out.  I too highly suspect Z for Goleta, but we know there were so many crazies out there back in the day.  I've always thought Z was a seasoned killer before 12/20/68.
Bryan playing dead and Cecelia trying to roll away saved Bryan in my opinion. I believe that if Cecelia hadn't tried to roll away and distracted him from Bryan that he would have stabbed him more than 8 times.
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Druzer
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25 Jan 2018, 00:30 #27

In my opinion they both survived long enough to talk to police only because the attacker chose not to cut their throats. He wasn't in a hurry and I doubt playing dead fooled him. I think the idea was just to make them suffer. 
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B217h
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25 Jan 2018, 23:14 #28

Druzer wrote: In my opinion they both survived long enough to talk to police only because the attacker chose not to cut their throats. He wasn't in a hurry and I doubt playing dead fooled him. I think the idea was just to make them suffer. 


Plenty of people have had their throats cut and survived. Zodiac definitely meant to kill them and I doubt suffering was on his mind as he dispatched all his other victims quickly. Brian was just extremely lucky as the knife blade was about a foot long which if I had to guess was an Arkansas Toothpick or Bowie Knife had missed his heart by a couple inches. Cecelia was stabbed 10-20 times and Brian 8 times. I think Z was disappointed at first about Bryan surviving but in the end he was glad. Bryan's account of what happened and what Z was wearing, which I believe was only for himself as he didn't intend for either to survive was what launched Z's legend to almost mythic proportions.
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Druzer
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26 Jan 2018, 00:02 #29

There is certainly hard evidence to support the theory that the Zodiac Killer was trying to kill people. Even if fame was his endgame he did not brag by tallying up his list of wounded, only those who died seemed to count. I appreciate that he attacked viciously and that their deaths would have pleased him. However, I am interested in assessing whether he was local to any of the areas he attacked in by exploring the state in which he left his victims. If he knew they were still alive and could speak to police, but left the scene anyway, even though he wasn't being hotly pursued, then he likely wasn't from the area. It is a theory that no doubt requires further thought.
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Not You
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Not You
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26 Jan 2018, 02:36 #30

Druzer wrote: There is certainly hard evidence to support the theory that the Zodiac Killer was trying to kill people.
Well he’s not called the Zodiac Wounder, is he?
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