Just a random thought about the Berryessa murders

Cecelia Shepard and Bryan Hartnell
Sept. 27, 1969 at Lake Berryessa in Napa County, Cal.
Discussion of definite Zodiac victims Cecelia Shepard and Bryan Hartnell should be posted here

nordwind
DOJ
Joined: April 2nd, 2008, 12:59 am

January 14th, 2018, 7:44 pm #11

Also by default ,this kind of proves he never used a silencer @ the Blue Rock Springs attack as implied by Fincher's Zodiac & suspected by Mageau's testimony....as the Blue Rock Springs attack pre-dated Berryessa by almost 2 months...if he would've used a silencer @ Blue Rocks logically he would've also had a silencer attached @ Berryessa as kind of a "fall back" strategy.... 
Once you've heard the truth everything else is just cheap whiskey.....R Lee Ermey
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: February 23rd, 2007, 11:25 pm

January 14th, 2018, 11:07 pm #12

Zodiac had a easy getaway on July 5th , his car at BRS was only a few feet away from the victims and the main road,  plus the sound of fire works made it pretty safe for Zodiac.  The walk from the crime scene at Lake B to Knoxville rd ,would take a long time to get to his car. If anyone would have heard a shot they could have easily seen the shooter walking to his car. I am giving a reason why he chose not to shoot , in answer to why "he didn't just shoot Bryan when Bryan asked if the gun was loaded".
At the Stine shooting Zodiac knew he had enough time to get away, it was very dark and he had a disguise, or so he claimed.  It was believed that the previous robberies in that area , could have been trial runs to see how long it would take for SFPD to show up? He had no idea that the police were not that far away that night at that time.
Yes that was still brazen of him ,but he had become "very confident" in getting away with murder by then. Firing a gun next to the head of the victim, is somewhat like having a silencer ,plus the doors were closed on the cab, therefore it was barely heard by anyone in the area. We are talking oranges and apples here.
Bottom line to why he didn't just shoot Bryan instead of showing him the clip? A "possible reason" is that the gun shot could have drawn attention to him, before his escape. Even with a silencer, it would have echoed enough to be heard by others in the area. I have shot several guns, a silencer only minimizes the sound to some degree,it doesn't make it silent. Also a silencer is removable, it probably would not fit in his holster. Most holsters, at least the ones I have had fit the gun snugly, no room for the addition of a silencer. 
Quote
Like
Share

csmith
Old Newbie
csmith
Old Newbie
Joined: February 27th, 2014, 4:58 am

January 15th, 2018, 1:32 am #13

Easy getaway?  He had to hide on the presidio for hours to avoid the cavalry(so he claimed), & if the correct description had going out initially, he would have been caught(most likely)by the 2 flatfoots.  Those kids watched him get in to the front seat..etc,, u know what happened, but it could have just as easily been adults looking out the front downstairs window, who could have very well run out the door to confront him.  It was beyond brazen, imo, & well beyond the chutzpa that would been required to fire that gun at Berryessa where no one was within...what, a half mile?  More?.I know the old man in the sea heard the victims & came to their aid, but that was after the fact, plus-he was in a boat!  what could he have done to Z from a boat, couldn't identify him in that getup either.   . 
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: September 6th, 2007, 5:00 am

January 15th, 2018, 1:54 am #14

I've often wondered if the activities of the Manson Family in their August killing spree prompted Z in any way to make his next killing a stabbing.  I know Manson also used a gun at Tate's murder rampage, but it was the knife work, the blood letting that truly flipped everyone out.  Up until that time Z was enjoying all the news attention, then Manson came along and took a lot of that from Z, for a time.  It was normal to hear gunfire from hunter's around LB, but in the more remote area's, not around the shoreline, so for sure a gun going off would have caught the attention of anyone in the area.  I recall the Los Gatos Dentist and his son, the son noticed who they believe was Z leaving the scene, going up to the cars.  They were also down on the shoreline a couple peninsula's up from Bryan and Cecilia , but I estimate within a 1/4 mile and they never reported hearing the screams. 
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: February 23rd, 2007, 11:25 pm

January 15th, 2018, 2:07 am #15

csmith
It was proven that he was not hiding in the Presidio. The kids didn't watch him get into the front seat, he was already sitting there when he shot Paul Stine. The fisherman couldn't go to their aid, the water was too shallow, so he went to the next resort to report what he saw.
I am not sure what your point is? Coulda, woulda ,shoulda? We know that Zodiac took chances and was brazen, he had more luck than smarts.


BA 60's, You have a very good point. Manson did upstage Zodiac for a while and I am sure that had to upset Zodiac's huge ego.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: September 6th, 2007, 5:00 am

January 15th, 2018, 2:24 am #16

csmith wrote: Easy getaway?  He had to hide on the presidio for hours to avoid the cavalry(so he claimed), & if the correct description had going out initially, he would have been caught(most likely)by the 2 flatfoots.  Those kids watched him get in to the front seat..etc,, u know what happened, but it could have just as easily been adults looking out the front downstairs window, who could have very well run out the door to confront him.  It was beyond brazen, imo, & well beyond the chutzpa that would been required to fire that gun at Berryessa where no one was within...what, a half mile?  More?.I know the old man in the sea heard the victims & came to their aid, but that was after the fact, plus-he was in a boat!  what could he have done to Z from a boat, couldn't identify him in that getup either.   . 
Brazen is a good word for it.  When you stand where Stine's Cab was and just do a 360, looking at all directions it always amazes me that only the kids saw him.  He's right in front of a residence, there's all those apartment windows, he has no idea who or what is on Cherry St.  Could have been cops right there, or groups of people walking, anything.  He was lucky there, no one else saw or heard anything, and no one on the streets.  I've read before where Serial's when they get the urge to kill, nothing will stop them.  I think that had to be the frame of mind Zodiac was in.  He sure wasn't thinking of all the possibilities that could go wrong for him.
Quote
Like
Share

csmith
Old Newbie
csmith
Old Newbie
Joined: February 27th, 2014, 4:58 am

January 15th, 2018, 2:28 am #17

EXACTLY!!
Quote
Like
Share

csmith
Old Newbie
csmith
Old Newbie
Joined: February 27th, 2014, 4:58 am

January 15th, 2018, 2:39 am #18

sandy betts wrote: csmith
It was proven that he was not hiding in the Presidio. The kids didn't watch him get into the front seat, he was already sitting there when he shot Paul Stine. The fisherman couldn't go to their aid, the water was too shallow, so he went to the next resort to report what he saw.
I am not sure what your point is? Coulda, woulda ,shoulda? We know that Zodiac took chances and was brazen, he had more luck than smarts.


BA 60's, You have a very good point. Manson did upstage Zodiac for a while and I am sure that had to upset Zodiac's huge ego.
Don't get frustrated, this type of discourse is part of what this forum is all about.  Henceforth, I don't know how you can't be sure what my point is by now. The title of the thread suggests a random thought about the Berryessa murders, specifically that Hartnell was lucky Z didn't demonstrate that the gun was loaded at Berryessa instead of showing him, & if we know that " Z was brazen & took chances", as you just said, then I also don't see how it is that you disagree with my point. It's whatever though!  
Quote
Like
Share

csmith
Old Newbie
csmith
Old Newbie
Joined: February 27th, 2014, 4:58 am

January 15th, 2018, 2:48 am #19

sandy betts wrote: csmith
It was proven that he was not hiding in the Presidio. The kids didn't watch him get into the front seat, he was already sitting there when he shot Paul Stine. The fisherman couldn't go to their aid, the water was too shallow, so he went to the next resort to report what he saw.
I am not sure what your point is? Coulda, woulda ,shoulda? We know that Zodiac took chances and was brazen, he had more luck than smarts.


BA 60's, You have a very good point. Manson did upstage Zodiac for a while and I am sure that had to upset Zodiac's huge ego.
Let e rephrase that: PLEASE don't get frustrated, i'm not trying to be antagonistic, not purposefully.  You bring up a good point though, there's probably no useful purpose in even arguing the what if's, because it hardly matters & certainly isn't going to solve anything 48+ years after the fact.
Quote
Like
Share

Sierra
Old Newbie
Sierra
Old Newbie
Joined: January 7th, 2015, 12:27 am

January 17th, 2018, 10:37 pm #20

My opinion:

1) He planned on tying them up and stabbing them, not shooting them. That is why he brought pre-cut lengths of rope.
2) He brought the gun as back-up in case one person ran before he tied them up.
3) If he shot the gun it would have been very loud, although people would not necessarily pay attention to gunshots in an area frequented be hunters and shooters.
4) He followed trough with his original plans.




.
Quote
Like
Share