Steven Avery

CRIME
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Steven Avery

Regal_Legal_Beagle
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Joined: February 1st, 2018, 6:21 pm

May 28th, 2018, 8:06 pm #1

Avery's Guilt

Total votes: 8
3(38%)
1(13%)
3(38%)
0(0%)
1(13%)

I don't think I've seen a good discussion on here of the Avery-Halbach case.

I'm curious as to people's thoughts, so I'm going to post a poll on this topic.
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Regal_Legal_Beagle
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Joined: February 1st, 2018, 6:21 pm

May 29th, 2018, 11:48 pm #2

I'm surprised only 3 people have voted, but anyhow- those who say guilty, I'm curious why you are certain beyond a reasonable doubt. 

It's 50-50 in my mind. He could have done it, but it seems very odd to me that A) there is no evidence to support the prosecution's theory of how the murder happened, certainly none to support the "confession" Brendan Dassey "gave", and B) it's odd as hell that the cops who found the key and the bullet were both cops that weren't supposed to be there and were named in their individual capacity in Avery's civil suit (keep in mind, individuals are always personally responsible for any intentional torts they commit). Those guys were looking at not only a civil judgment against them, but also losing their pensions. If that's not motive to plant evidence, I don't know what is.

Halbach obviously wan't killed in the trailer like authorities originally claimed. They gave up on that theory. Then they said she was killed in the garage, and after they changed from trailer to garage, they found a bullet on the garage floor. How in the world did that bullet get there without any other DNA from her being in that garage? Obviously, her throat was not cut in that garage and obviously that bullet didn't land there after passing out her head in an exit wound. Very hard for me to imagine a bullet passing through a person and landing on the floor and there being no blood or tissue also coming out and landing in that garage.

Maybe he guilty, but there's more than enough questionable circumstances in the case to give me reasonable doubt. No way I could have convicted.

People say read the stuff they left out of the documentary and you'll see he's guilty as sin. I've read that stuff, and it's not compelling enough to eliminate reasonable doubt. It doesn't provide anything to explain the deficiencies in the prosecution's case.
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DoomZ
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DoomZ
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Joined: August 30th, 2008, 11:48 pm

May 30th, 2018, 7:50 pm #3

I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that:

a) A conspiracy to frame Avery was put together at the drop of a hat. Like the way that O.J. was "framed." LOL
b) That numerous officials were willing to risk the loss of their careers and potential prison terms for framing an innocent man.
c) That LE either murdered Teresa Halbach, burned her body and moved it to Avery's property to frame him or that they found her after someone else had murdered/burned her (or LE burned her after they found her body) and decided to frame Avery by moving her bones to his property. By doing so they let the real assailant go. I guess he/she gets a freebee because framing Avery is just that important.
One of these two scenarios just so happened to take place on the very day that Halbach was going to Avery's junk yard. How did those who "framed" Avery know that she was supposed to be there?

Some of the reasons why I believe that Avery is guilty:

Teresa Halbach didn't want to go to Avery's that day because he'd previously answered his door wearing only a towel.
Because Halbach didn't like Avery (and he knew it), Avery twice used *67 that day to hide his phone number/identity and he pretended to be somebody else in order to lure her there.
There is no proof that any of the incriminating evidence found on Avery's property was planted. Only speculation. That which is asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.
Halbach's car was found on his property covered with limbs, leaves and plywood. Wouldn't conspirators want the vehicle to be clearly visible?
Every single one of Halbach's bones was found in the burn pit in Avery's yard, plus one of rivets off of the jeans that she was wearing that day.
Halbach's DNA was found on the fragment of a bullet that was fired from Avery's gun. The one that hangs in his bedroom. The bullet fragment was found in Avery's garage.
Avery's DNA (sweat) was found under the hood of Halbach's car.
The saw used to cut up Halbach's body was also found in the burn pit along with her cell phone and camera.
Avery had a deep cut on his finger. That sort of thing can happen when you're cutting up a body.

There are people that believe some far-fetched sh*t in this world. I'm not one of them.
Lies have to be repeated to be believed. Truth stands on its own merit.
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Regal_Legal_Beagle
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Joined: February 1st, 2018, 6:21 pm

May 30th, 2018, 11:33 pm #4

DoomZ wrote: Some of the reasons why I believe that Avery is guilty:

Teresa Halbach didn't want to go to Avery's that day because he'd previously answered his door wearing only a towel.
Because Halbach didn't like Avery (and he knew it), Avery twice used *67 that day to hide his phone number/identity and he pretended to be somebody else in order to lure her there.
There is no proof that any of the incriminating evidence found on Avery's property was planted. Only speculation. That which is asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.
Halbach's car was found on his property covered with limbs, leaves and plywood. Wouldn't conspirators want the vehicle to be clearly visible?
Every single one of Halbach's bones was found in the burn pit in Avery's yard, plus one of rivets off of the jeans that she was wearing that day.
Halbach's DNA was found on the fragment of a bullet that was fired from Avery's gun. The one that hangs in his bedroom. The bullet fragment was found in Avery's garage.
Avery's DNA (sweat) was found under the hood of Halbach's car.
The saw used to cut up Halbach's body was also found in the burn pit along with her cell phone and camera.
Avery had a deep cut on his finger. That sort of thing can happen when you're cutting up a body.

There are people that believe some far-fetched sh*t in this world. I'm not one of them.
Some of these things are very difficult to explain away, which is why I'm not sure he's innocent. Like i said, I'm 50-50. However, there are some things you noted that are incorrect.

Whether he hid his # or not, she knew she was going to his place. She had the address and, as you said, had been there before. I'm not not sure of the point of the *67 thing but it's suspicious, I agree.

True, there's no proof any incriminating evidence was put there by cops, obviously. There are some questionable facts that have not been well explained. 

'Wouldn't conspirators want her car to be easily found?' It was pretty dog gone easy to fins. At what do you say it was TOO easy? Keep in mind, Avery had a car crusher. 

"Every single one of Halbach's bones was found in the burn pit in Avery's yard, plus one of rivets off of the jeans that she was wearing that day." -- Ok, this is not true. All of her bones were not found there. There were at least 3 different locations where her bones were found, including teeth and pelvic bones at a quarry some distance from Avery's house. The prosecution avoided this fact like the plague.

A bullet fragment cannot be conclusively linked to Avery's gun. Not enough ballistic data for a match. The experts testified it could have come from a gun like Avery owned. His brother in law up the road had the same gun, as do I (I didn't do, just saying it's a common gun).

Halbach's DNA on the bullet in the garage. Again, as someone who has hunted a lot, I ask: how does that bullet exit her body without any other blood or tissue being found there? I've seen exit wounds, and they're messy. 

Her cell phone was not found in Avery's yard burn pit. It was at one of the other spots where bones were found.

"Avery had a deep cut on his finger. That sort of thing can happen when you're cutting up a body." True, but that's no evidence at all. That sort of thing can happen daily when you're a country boy who operates a salvage yard.

You may be right; he may be guilty. I don't really believe "far-fetched shit," but I do believe there are some pretty questionable circumstances around this case.

You say "why would the cops risk their careers, etc." That's the part I don't think you understand--the cops that found the bullet and the key were already facing those consequences from their role in his wrongful rape conviction. He was suing them personally along with Manitowoc County. At the very least, you should question why those guys were even on the property after the investigation was taken out of their hands for that very reason.

You're quick to believe the authorities on this, but you're believing the same authorities that railroaded him on the rape conviction.

There's a big difference in believing "far-fetched shit" and asking critical questions. If you were ever a defendant in a criminal trial, I bet you would want the jurors to ask those tough questions. I know I would.

I, too, find it VERY difficult to believe the cops would kill her and frame him. But somebody killed her, and there were cops that had a lot more motive than Avery. 


 
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I-Love-You
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June 13th, 2018, 7:18 am #5

Regal_Legal_Beagle wrote:
DoomZ wrote: Some of the reasons why I believe that Avery is guilty:

Teresa Halbach didn't want to go to Avery's that day because he'd previously answered his door wearing only a towel.
Because Halbach didn't like Avery (and he knew it), Avery twice used *67 that day to hide his phone number/identity and he pretended to be somebody else in order to lure her there.
There is no proof that any of the incriminating evidence found on Avery's property was planted. Only speculation. That which is asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.
Halbach's car was found on his property covered with limbs, leaves and plywood. Wouldn't conspirators want the vehicle to be clearly visible?
Every single one of Halbach's bones was found in the burn pit in Avery's yard, plus one of rivets off of the jeans that she was wearing that day.
Halbach's DNA was found on the fragment of a bullet that was fired from Avery's gun. The one that hangs in his bedroom. The bullet fragment was found in Avery's garage.
Avery's DNA (sweat) was found under the hood of Halbach's car.
The saw used to cut up Halbach's body was also found in the burn pit along with her cell phone and camera.
Avery had a deep cut on his finger. That sort of thing can happen when you're cutting up a body.

There are people that believe some far-fetched sh*t in this world. I'm not one of them.
Some of these things are very difficult to explain away, which is why I'm not sure he's innocent. Like i said, I'm 50-50. However, there are some things you noted that are incorrect.

Whether he hid his # or not, she knew she was going to his place. She had the address and, as you said, had been there before. I'm not not sure of the point of the *67 thing but it's suspicious, I agree.

True, there's no proof any incriminating evidence was put there by cops, obviously. There are some questionable facts that have not been well explained. 

'Wouldn't conspirators want her car to be easily found?' It was pretty dog gone easy to fins. At what do you say it was TOO easy? Keep in mind, Avery had a car crusher. 

"Every single one of Halbach's bones was found in the burn pit in Avery's yard, plus one of rivets off of the jeans that she was wearing that day." -- Ok, this is not true. All of her bones were not found there. There were at least 3 different locations where her bones were found, including teeth and pelvic bones at a quarry some distance from Avery's house. The prosecution avoided this fact like the plague.

A bullet fragment cannot be conclusively linked to Avery's gun. Not enough ballistic data for a match. The experts testified it could have come from a gun like Avery owned. His brother in law up the road had the same gun, as do I (I didn't do, just saying it's a common gun).

Halbach's DNA on the bullet in the garage. Again, as someone who has hunted a lot, I ask: how does that bullet exit her body without any other blood or tissue being found there? I've seen exit wounds, and they're messy. 

Her cell phone was not found in Avery's yard burn pit. It was at one of the other spots where bones were found.

"Avery had a deep cut on his finger. That sort of thing can happen when you're cutting up a body." True, but that's no evidence at all. That sort of thing can happen daily when you're a country boy who operates a salvage yard.

You may be right; he may be guilty. I don't really believe "far-fetched shit," but I do believe there are some pretty questionable circumstances around this case.

You say "why would the cops risk their careers, etc." That's the part I don't think you understand--the cops that found the bullet and the key were already facing those consequences from their role in his wrongful rape conviction. He was suing them personally along with Manitowoc County. At the very least, you should question why those guys were even on the property after the investigation was taken out of their hands for that very reason.

You're quick to believe the authorities on this, but you're believing the same authorities that railroaded him on the rape conviction.

There's a big difference in believing "far-fetched shit" and asking critical questions. If you were ever a defendant in a criminal trial, I bet you would want the jurors to ask those tough questions. I know I would.

I, too, find it VERY difficult to believe the cops would kill her and frame him. But somebody killed her, and there were cops that had a lot more motive than Avery. 


 
Wasn't the address given for that visit actually next door to Avery's place and under the name of a female? And the dispatcher noted that the caller sounded like a woman?  So Theresa didn't know she was going to Avery's. If she had, from all reports, she wouldn't have gone.

Avery's GF is out of town. He calls up a woman that he made passes at before, gives a fake name and address and disguises his voice to sound like a woman. WHY does he do that???  And then she is never seen alive again after going to that job.

A lot of the "evidence" or facts you bring up aren't really true or are huge exaggerations. That documentary was a complete work of fiction.

For it to have been a cover up, the police would have had to know that Theresa was going to be on Avery's property that day. How would they know that? Somehow they find out.....so they stake it out, wait for her to leave, then decide to KILL a woman and frame Avery.....just so the city doesn't have to pay him a large settlement? The police - along with ALL the people who have to be involved - were willing to actually kill an innocent person? The officers involved weren't going to lose their jobs or pensions if the city/department had to pay a huge settlement.

So a bunch of people are willing to commit murder and then go to jail for life.....just to prevent Avery from receiving a settlement?  And we aren't talking about people that were involved in the first crime. The majority of the people in the Theresa era had NOTHING to do with Avery's original situation.

And remember. At first, Avery flat out told the police that Theresa WAS NOT AT HIS HOUSE the day she disappeared. Then changed his story several times.

And just to make it all work out.....luckily, Avery and Brandon are having a bonfire that day after Theresa "left."  So the police quickly killed her. Then waited in the bushes until Avery and Brandon both too a bathroom break at the same time. Then they quickly cut up the body and dumped it into the bonfire, and dumped part of her body and her belongings into a burning barrel. Getting that job done before Avery/Brandon came back outside from their piss break.

Avery wasn't framed in the first case. The police thought they had their man. He was a piece of shit guy, in and out of jail, always in trouble. Accused by a few different young girls of coming on to them and inappropriate touching - even from a couple nieces and their friends. He was a such a scumbag that when feuding with a neighbor, he would time it in the morning to be standing on the side of the road NAKED when she drove by to go to work. This is a dude who went to jail for pouring gasoline on a cat and setting it on fire. And for assaulting a police officer.  So when a woman was raped and described somebody that looked like Avery - the police figured it was him.  This wasn't the local Sunday School teacher or Boy Scout leader. It was a dude who was a complete scumbag, who hated the police, who was a career criminal, and who was known for assaulting young women.
Did the police do their job thoroughly? Nope. They sure didn't. Clearly.
But they didn't just say "hey, that Avery guy is a scumbag. Let's frame him and put him in jail." 
They legit thought he was guilty, so they didn't investigate some of the other suspects.

I just point that out because there is a big difference between the cops framing somebody and them just getting the wrong guy. OJ got off for murder. Sometimes the cops and/or the lawyers just don't get the job done. Local police aren't sherlock holmes. They investigate and do their best - most of the time they get it right, sometimes they don't.

IMO the people who made that documentary should be ashamed of themselves and should never be taken seriously again by anybody. They manipulated 90% of the facts into flat out lies. Take away that documentary and literally nobody in the world thinks that anybody other than Avery is the murderer. The facts of the case are overwhelming. Open and shut. A lot of cases are solved over one hair as evidence. Or the DNA from the back of a stamp. But in this case, there were like 20 smoking guns.

THIS case resembles the ZOdiac case in so many ways. The documentary was a bigger pack of lies and half-truths than Graysmith's book ever was. Ten times worse. But still to this day you have people that quote "facts" the read in the yellow book. Just like today, people that defend Avery do so with "facts" from the documentary. Facts that have been proven to be 100% wrong.  But people watch that documentary, then do no other research, and think that it was a true account of what happened. When most of it was pure fiction.

Avery killed that poor lady. 100%. Not a shadow of a doubt.
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Regal_Legal_Beagle
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June 13th, 2018, 8:44 pm #6

The documentary definitely presented the events in a favorable light to Avery, but I would like to know what you feel they lied about.

What evidence and facts did I list that are not true or are exaggerated? I believe everything I said to be factual, so if I am mistaken, I want to be corrected, but be specific. 

Halbach had been to the Avery salvage multiple times. Even if he gave a bad address and everything else, she still knew that was his place when she got close. It wasn't like she had no idea where she was and Steven opened the trailer door and said "Surprise!! You're at the Avery Salvage!"

As to the original rape case, I didn't say the cops framed him, I said they railroaded him. That was the basis of his lawsuit, which they paid him a butt load of money to settle. They intentionally withheld exculpatory evidence from his defense lawyer and actively pushed the investigation toward him because he fit the general description and he was an undesirable character.
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