Question about the witnesses

Paul Stine
Oct. 11, 1969 in San Francisco, Cal.
Discussion of definite Zodiac victim Paul Stine should be posted here

Bolt
VPD
Joined: March 15th, 2018, 1:43 am

June 21st, 2018, 12:02 am #31

Mike99 wrote: Hi,

The reason Jim and I spoke to Fouke at what someone here apparently thinks was too advanced an age is that Graysmith consciously avoided speaking to him for either of his two books.  Ditto the Robbins kids, whom RG never even approached for an interview, which really confused Lindsey.  When Fouke complained to him that he never interviewed him for the 1986 book, Graysmith promised him he'd be interviewed for the sequel.  Funny how Fouke did not think that Allen resembled the man he had seen that night and RG not only did not interview him but also misspelled his name and other people had difficulty locating him.  Lindsey did not think Allen was the guy either and HE was not approached for an interview.  See a pattern there?

Mike
Dave Toschi never spoke to the Robbins kids either, correct?
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Regal_Legal_Beagle
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June 21st, 2018, 12:19 am #32

Interestingly, Foukes's description in that report isn't really inconsistent with the Lake Beryessa descriptions--in fact it sounds like he was likely wearing the same navy blue Derby jacket. 

And the report doesn't jibe with what he said in "This is the Zodiac Speaking", when he said Leigh Allen was 'a hundred pounds heavier' than the guy he saw. Unless he thinks Allen weighed 280-300, which he didn't. That written description could very easily apply to Allen.
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Regal_Legal_Beagle
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June 21st, 2018, 12:20 am #33

Or maybe it was in "His Name was Arthur Leigh Allen." 

One of those 2007 film bonus features.
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Regal_Legal_Beagle
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June 21st, 2018, 12:36 am #34

For what it's worth, Wikipedia says this: 

Allen is a Celtic surname, originating in Scotland, and common in Ireland, Wales and England.
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ZteveMcQueen
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ZteveMcQueen
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June 21st, 2018, 12:40 am #35

TejasRob wrote:
JonnyK wrote: “I don't think it was a crew working together. I just don't think it was one guy who committed all the crimes. I think the zodiac was involved in a couple of them. And the others were random crimes that the police/newspapers tied together.”

This has always been my belief and is a good reason why none of the crimes have been solved - LE have been trying to tie one guy to everything when no one person could have been.
But the police seem convinced the 4 known attacks are all related and are hesitant to include other attacks. If they are just blaming Zodiac for anything there are a hell of a lot more down there.
Tom has said there were items left at crime scenes and items mailed in afterwards that the public doesn't know about that established Z's involvement and that Lake Berryessa was a definite Z crime.

That doesn't prove that there wasn't a Team Z with multiple people cooperating on the Z murders. It does suggest that there weren't multiple, independent killers who were unknown to each other. If they didn't know each other they couldn't have left a common Z calling card at the murder scenes or mailed it in afterwards. 

Tom, if that isn't accurate, don't hesitate to correct me.
Zodiac was a liar. There's no reason to assume anything he said was true.
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I-Love-You
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I-Love-You
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June 21st, 2018, 12:40 am #36

TejasRob wrote:
JonnyK wrote: “I don't think it was a crew working together. I just don't think it was one guy who committed all the crimes. I think the zodiac was involved in a couple of them. And the others were random crimes that the police/newspapers tied together.”


This has always been my belief and is a good reason why none of the crimes have been solved - LE have been trying to tie one guy to everything when no one person could have been.
But the police seem convinced the 4 known attacks are all related and are hesitant to include other attacks. If they are just blaming Zodiac for anything there are a hell of a lot more down there.
If I remember correctly....there are four crimes that police feel are definitely Zodiac crimes. And then four that are debatable?
To me, that seems like the most likely final outcome. Four to the Zodiac. And Johns/Bates and the two other ones to random other people.
or something along those lines.
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TejasRob
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TejasRob
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June 21st, 2018, 3:46 am #37

I-Love-You wrote:
TejasRob wrote:
JonnyK wrote: “I don't think it was a crew working together. I just don't think it was one guy who committed all the crimes. I think the zodiac was involved in a couple of them. And the others were random crimes that the police/newspapers tied together.”


This has always been my belief and is a good reason why none of the crimes have been solved - LE have been trying to tie one guy to everything when no one person could have been.
But the police seem convinced the 4 known attacks are all related and are hesitant to include other attacks. If they are just blaming Zodiac for anything there are a hell of a lot more down there.
If I remember correctly....there are four crimes that police feel are definitely Zodiac crimes. And then four that are debatable?
To me, that seems like the most likely final outcome. Four to the Zodiac. And Johns/Bates and the two other ones to random other people.
or something along those lines.
Until it's proven otherwise, I'll always believe the Domingo/Edwards slayings were the work of Zodiac. Even some of the PD there believe it was. There are several more out there, Zodiac claimed more. But my point is the police seem to know of a verifiable connection between the 4 attacks that are generally considered known Zodiac attacks.
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TejasRob
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TejasRob
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June 21st, 2018, 3:50 am #38

ZteveMcQueen wrote:
TejasRob wrote:
JonnyK wrote: “I don't think it was a crew working together. I just don't think it was one guy who committed all the crimes. I think the zodiac was involved in a couple of them. And the others were random crimes that the police/newspapers tied together.”

This has always been my belief and is a good reason why none of the crimes have been solved - LE have been trying to tie one guy to everything when no one person could have been.
But the police seem convinced the 4 known attacks are all related and are hesitant to include other attacks. If they are just blaming Zodiac for anything there are a hell of a lot more down there.
Tom has said there were items left at crime scenes and items mailed in afterwards that the public doesn't know about that established Z's involvement and that Lake Berryessa was a definite Z crime.
Yes, and that is one reason I said what I did.
That doesn't prove that there wasn't a Team Z with multiple people cooperating on the Z murders. It does suggest that there weren't multiple, independent killers who were unknown to each other. If they didn't know each other they couldn't have left a common Z calling card at the murder scenes or mailed it in afterwards.
Agreed. A team would certainly explain some things. But my point was that the 4 attacks said to be the work of Zodiac are considered his work for a reason and it's not the police just wanting to pin those crimes on someone.
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JonnyK
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Joined: November 27th, 2008, 9:58 pm

June 21st, 2018, 7:23 am #39

LE don’t get everything right all of the time - especially the cases they couldn’t solve for half a century or more.

There’s every chance that Z is indeed responsible for the canonical 4 attacks (and maybe more). However, some police who have worked the case thought that Faraday/Jensen for example was committed by some local known criminals who they couldn’t tie down due to lack of evidence. The only thing linking Z to Lake Herman is that he claimed it in a letter 6 months later with a basic description of the crime scene. Granted, an average person wouldn’t know some of those details but anyone connected to the press or LE (and even friends/family of them) could have got that information. We’ve just seen with the final arrest of GSK after all these years that being involved with LE allowed him to misinform and stay one step ahead of the investigation at all times.

Unless LE are hiding something, it’s still a fact that none of the crimes can be tied together by solid evidence such as fingerprints, DNA or other forensic proof so although probable on the surface, I would never categorically say it’s 100% definite that one man is responsible for the lot.
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HebrewWolfman
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HebrewWolfman
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Joined: April 2nd, 2018, 6:49 pm

June 21st, 2018, 12:52 pm #40

TejasRob wrote:
ZteveMcQueen wrote:
TejasRob wrote:

But the police seem convinced the 4 known attacks are all related and are hesitant to include other attacks. If they are just blaming Zodiac for anything there are a hell of a lot more down there.
Tom has said there were items left at crime scenes and items mailed in afterwards that the public doesn't know about that established Z's involvement and that Lake Berryessa was a definite Z crime.
Yes, and that is one reason I said what I did.
That doesn't prove that there wasn't a Team Z with multiple people cooperating on the Z murders. It does suggest that there weren't multiple, independent killers who were unknown to each other. If they didn't know each other they couldn't have left a common Z calling card at the murder scenes or mailed it in afterwards.
Agreed. A team would certainly explain some things. But my point was that the 4 attacks said to be the work of Zodiac are considered his work for a reason and it's not the police just wanting to pin those crimes on someone.
If the team theory is correct then out of the canonical murders, the Blue Rock Springs and Presidio Heights murders were committed by the shorter member (5'8"-5'9") who had a light brown hair while the Lake Berryessa murder was comitted by the taller (5'11"-6'0") member who had dark brown hair according to Bryan Hartnell. Both of them are fat with mental problems and probably a lot of lust for blood.

I don't see one person who has a steady job and lives in the Bay Area just changing his hairstyle and hair color every now and then before attacks without being noticed by his peers who may do 1+1 and call the cops on him. Unless he was working on temporary menial jobs where he could quit after making a small earning and going on satisfying his sick blood shed loving nature.
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