Question about Bawart's report, for those intimately familiar with the case

enonumus
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enonumus
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Joined: November 20th, 2017, 8:07 pm

November 22nd, 2017, 5:01 am #1

In item #24 of Bawart's 1992 report, Bawart indicates that in the mid 1970s DOJ investigator Silver accompanied Brian Hartnell (Lake Berryessa victim) to the hardware store where Allen worked, and directed Hartnell to go into the store and purchase something from Allen.  According to the report, Hartnell then informed Silver that Allen had the same build and the same voice as the man who attacked him at Lake Berryessa, seemingly identifying him as the Zodiac.  I've never seen this encounter mentioned or documented anywhere else other than Bawart's report, and it seems like a significant piece of evidence if it occurred and if it's accurate.  In the 2008 documentary "This Is The Zodiac Speaking", Hartnell states that his attacker had a very distinctive tone and sound (later in the interview he says it had a very unique "cadence"), and that he told this to the police at the time, along with his description of the unusual speech pattern his assailant had.  He then states that he told police he'd definitely know it if he ever heard that voice again, but he follows that up by saying (in 2008) that he never heard it again.  He makes no mention whatsoever in that documentary of any encounter with Allen at the hardware store, and he contradicts Bawart's report outright by saying that he never heard that voice again.  (He was also asked to listen to the tape from the Jim Dunbar show where someone claiming to be Zodiac phoned in, but he says that voice sounded nothing like Zodiac.)

Anyway, I'm wondering where Bawart's information about the hardware store encounter comes from and if it's documented anywhere.    

Thanks
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nonsmokinggun
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Joined: February 8th, 2015, 6:59 am

December 10th, 2017, 11:19 pm #2

Interesting.
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EddieBarsh92
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EddieBarsh92
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March 10th, 2018, 12:18 am #3

Interesting this never got a response. I kinda feel that LB may have been done by someone else and Z took credit for it. Some of the other attacks describe similar builds usually around 5'10 190-200 lbs yet LB is totally different. The attacker was someone possibly taller than 6 foot and over 200+ lbs.. LB just seems to stick out as being different. Not to mention that Z never bragged about it in letters and only seemed to acknowledge it by writing it on Stines door. I would like to hear more about this report that Hartnell may have met ALA face to face and heard his voice. Very interesting
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Joined: February 23rd, 2007, 11:25 pm

March 10th, 2018, 5:49 pm #4

That must be where Graysmith wrote or said that Hartnell went into where Allen was working and when Allen saw Hartnell , he said "I thought you were dead? " ,Allen then ran out of the back door LOL. (Liar liar pants on fire!)

Lets find the DOJ investigator Silver and ask him if Bowart's report was true or not? Hopefully he is still alive? The" true"report would have been written by Silver, unless Bawart was a witness to what Hartnell said to Silver. I believe what Hartnell said  about never hearing the voice again he heard that day at Lake Berryessa. Allen's voice was nothing like what Hartnell said Zodiac sounded like. For sure it was not monotone or husky ,as witnesses have said they heard.

EddieBarsh92, Often victims of a traumatic event such as what Hartnell and Cecelia went through , do not make the best of witnesses. That has been proven many times. The costume made Zodiac appear taller, because of the hood that was shaped like a "paper sack". The one deep footprint that the cast was done of, I think threw the case off totally! They do not use plaster of paris  any longer, because it is not the best medium to use to get a accurate impression.  In other words we can't be sure that Zodiac weighed 200 or so pounds. Obviously that has to be true if there was only one Zodiac, because there is no way that he shrunk and lost over 50 pounds in two weeks for the Stine shooting.
At the time of the Lake B stabbing , it was not known that Zodiac's MO was to call the police to confess to his crimes. Except the call after Blue Rock Springs. Now we know there were other calls made by the killer ,that the public didn't know about. So for a copy cat to do that crime and place a call in Napa right after that crime is not that likely. Plus the handwriting on the car door matched Zodiac's. He didn't need to give anymore proof that he was the killer by writing about it later, because he wrote his confession on the car door. That was all he needed to do to show he was the killer. On that car door he showed only his victims in northern Calif.  Aug victims are still debatable, at least for me. And yes Lake B was very different, but he was upstaged by Manson and he didn't like that, so he had to do something to try and top Manson is what I think?
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EddieBarsh92
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EddieBarsh92
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March 11th, 2018, 9:26 am #5

By no means am I attacking you personally sandy so plz don't take this the wrong way but I really hate when ppl say witnesses aren't reliable. Are witnesses perfect? No. Can they sometimes mix things up? Yes. Over time do ppl forget things or do they become fuzzy? Ehh I don't think we should say yes or no. I think we should base that on a case by case basis because my great grandmother was 95 years old, still was in excellent condition, drove a 40-50 mile round trip everyday to work and was still very sharp and could recall things w great detail from 30-40-50 years prior which is why I dislike when ppl attack Hartnell, mageau, slover etc and question their statements. We can't just simply regard one of the very few witnesses who did survive. Bryan Hartnell made it very clear that his attacker was stocky and was roughly 6 foot tall. Slover said she would never forget that voice.
As to Z claiming responsibility for LB, I still find it very very curious that the one attack he did ( that we know of at least) dressed in a costume that (obviously meant a great deal to him) he doesn't brag about it in his letters? Or even mention it? In fact if I'm not mistaken he didn't mention until 2 weeks later after the Stine hit.. Very very strange. Many people , including LE, feel Z took credit for things he didn't do (some have pointed to K Johns and Bates as possibilities) I'm very open to the possibility he didn't do LB although at this point there's nothing concrete he didn't do LB.
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BugsMoran
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Joined: April 18th, 2007, 7:25 pm

March 11th, 2018, 1:22 pm #6

Excellent posts, Eddie. I do think that the attacker at Lake  Berryessa and the attacker of Paul Stine were two different people based upon the descriptions. One of these attackers also was the one who attacked Mike and Darlene and the teenagers at Christmas time.
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Joined: February 23rd, 2007, 11:25 pm

March 11th, 2018, 5:02 pm #7

EddieB, I was not attacking Hartnell or anyone else ,I was stating a known fact about witnesses who suffer from a traumatic event. Certain things are blocked from their memories. The brain sometimes blocks unpleasant memories for our own protection. He didn't remember if the killer had on gloves or not. He didn't notice the glasses under the hood, but did remember seeing the killers brown greasy /wet hair under the hood. Cecelia was the one who noticed the second pair of glasses under the hood. So there were things that he did not remember. I wrote him and asked if he remembered if Cecelia wore a wrist watch that day? Most students wore watches back then. When the costume was put in my car in Napa, there were also other things with it , one being a girls wrist watch. I did not see that there was one listed in the evidence, so wondered if it could have been hers?  There was a heart shaped plastic necklace with the name Cecelia written on the front of the red heart, on the back of it was a love poem in Spanish. Hartnell did not answer either question. Ken Narlow  thought that the reason for the costume was that the murder was being filmed by an accomplice and Z needed to hide his face for the filming. To this day that costume is mentioned in the news, there isn't any reason that I can think of for Zodiac to write about the costume, or why he wore it. It was an attention get er and he is all about attention. We all have our own theories and it is ok to think or believe what ever you like. I happen to believe differently about certain things than you. I do agree that there were probably two working in tandem and that one did Lake B and the other Paul Stine.
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TomVoigt
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Joined: February 21st, 2007, 4:35 am

March 11th, 2018, 6:04 pm #8

Lake Berryessa is a definite Zodiac crime. Not all evidence has been shared in the Zodiac cases, including items left at crime scenes as well as letters received.
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Bsmurfy
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March 11th, 2018, 8:47 pm #9

TomVoigt wrote:Lake Berryessa is a definite Zodiac crime. Not all evidence has been shared in the Zodiac cases, including items left at crime scenes as well as letters received.
Any you can share? ;)


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ZteveMcQueen
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ZteveMcQueen
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March 11th, 2018, 9:36 pm #10

TomVoigt wrote:Lake Berryessa is a definite Zodiac crime. Not all evidence has been shared in the Zodiac cases, including items left at crime scenes as well as letters received.
Damn. Curiosity piqued.


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Zodiac was a liar. There's no reason to assume anything he said was true.
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