PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION

ZODIAC 37
Discussion of this new Zodiac book by author Madame X should be posted here
MadameX
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MadameX
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Joined: July 31st, 2014, 1:46 am

October 14th, 2017, 3:42 pm #11

sandy betts wrote: Not sure what Z book has the information MADAMEX is giving for page 32 and 33, but I couldn't find anything that Hartnell said on those pages, those pages were all about Darlene, could be a typo MADAMEX might want to correct?
In one report by Hartnell, he said the hood looked more like a" paper sack". Believe me if it was a welders mask , that would have been in all of the reports.( Welders masks don't have "eye holes") If Nick was 17 in 1969 and was the killer in Lompoc in 1963, he would have been 11 yrs old and only 14 at Riverside. Foulkes said 35 to 45 in 1969.Please don't ignore facts to fit your suspect like so many have done in the past.
If the hood had only "slits" for the eye holes, how could Hartnell see Zodiac's greasy forehead, unless his forehead hung over the eyes?
The costume that was put in my car in Napa on Sept 28th or 29th 1969, had fairly large round holes cut out for the eyes and was made from a paper sack, painted flat black to match the poncho that had the logo on it, not on the "hood"itself.
Hartnell also said that he was able to see the killers jacket collar. There is no way that he could have seen the collar if it was made in one solid piece as described! ( It was in two parts like what was put in my car.) Napa detectives have either ignored that fact or over looked it? The hood was one part of the costume and  the poncho was the other part.
The persons car that the 3 teens at Lake B saw, could not be Zodiac's car, because the wheel base did not match the wheel base of the killers car parked behind Hartnell's car, so we must disregard who they described.( So no white belt or body cast)
 
Reddish brown hair is closer to brown than black, but if brown hair is wet , it can look very dark.The person with the black hair who was trying to get Darlene to go out with him was George Waters, not Zodiac.

Not much information in Graysmiths Z books is factual, many things were made up to point to Art Allen. The only "factual"information in Unmasked was given to Graysmith by our own Tom V.
Graysmith did not give the credit to Tom, instead Graysmith took all of the credit. That paints a different picture for me of Graysmith. It is true that he trusted some of his informants who out and out lied to him, making his book not very credible.
Over the yrs I have bought about 25 of Graysmiths Z book to give to friends, believing most of what was in the book was factual.
Sandy, sorry it has taken so long for me to get back to you, but I just got back on.  As stated, the quotes that you were referring to can be found in "Zodiac Unmasked" rather than "Zodiac."  Well, I am off for the day!!  But, I will get back to you on the hood, age, theories, etc.  Thank you for your comments!!  Madame X  
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MadameX
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October 15th, 2017, 2:16 am #12

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Hood
Hood
This is the type of hood that I think Cecelia was talking about.  It is a vintage welding hood.  
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MadameX
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October 15th, 2017, 2:48 am #13

As far as age is concerned, please see my topic, "Zodiac's Age."  I think that we have all done a lot of research and come up with a lot of different theories.  That is good.  Police do the same thing.  In the end, only time will tell who the Zodiac truly is.  The important thing is that all of you (us) have been doing your part to keep this thing going all of these years in order to gain justice for the victims and their loved ones.  Without all of your efforts and devotion, this story would have died long ago and there would be no chance of the killer being caught.  Truly, the only "theories" that I don't respect are the ones where people knowing tell lies to point the finger at an innocent person.  An example of this would be Perez who said that she had Paul Stine's glasses.  I think that these people do more harm then good to the case.  
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Joined: May 9th, 2017, 9:30 pm

October 24th, 2017, 1:45 pm #14

Bruce3 wrote, "For my part I do not to be misunderstood. I do not -after reading, several times,reports some of which I got from Z expert Dave Peterson -the LB reports.  No where in those reports does it say that Z was wearing a 'welders hood.'"

Bruce, sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you.  The reports that I read were taken from the Napa "Register" and were written by Marsha Doran, I believe in 2007.  A lot of what she said was inaccurate.  Probably the best way to confirm whether or not she said it was a welder's hood would be to talk to Collins, if that is possible.  Still, a welder's hood does make sense to me.  For one reason, Bryan said that it hung down in the front like a dickey.  (Not a direct quote.)  And, Cecelia said that it didn't have eye holes.  Instead, it had an opening in the front of the mask itself.  Lastly, Bryan said that it had clip on glasses through which he could see a lock of brown hair and a greasy forehead.  So, I looked up clip on sunglasses and found that they clip over the top of glasses or a frame, such as a welder's hood would have.  (See the picture that I posted earlier.)  Interestingly, at least in the ones that I saw, they didn't have clips that clipped upwards.  Lastly, Bryan said that the Zodiac symbol was professionally attached, not drawn on.  (Again, not a direct quote.)  That would suggest to me that it could have been made from fabric and sewn or glued on.  This would also suggest that the letters were attached to fabric such as the leather of a welder's hood.      40153-1.jpg
Last edited by MADAMEX.zodiackiller.fr on October 24th, 2017, 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 23rd, 2007, 11:25 pm

October 24th, 2017, 3:54 pm #15

Cecelia did not say that there were no eye holes !!!!!!! She was the one who saw that there was a pair of glasses under the clip on sun glasses. From what I remember Hartnell saying that what he could see through the"eye holes" was brown hair and greasy  looking forehead. (There was also a cut out for the mouth). A welders hood does not have "4 corners" nor is it flat on top like a "paper sack" as described by Hartnell and there is no cut out for the mouth. Also Hartnell stated that he was able to see the collar of the killers jacket, that would have been impossible if the costume was in one solid piece or if it were a welders hood.  I have spoken to Collin's, he went to school with my husband in Napa , he did not say that the hood was described as a welders hood. Do you have a suspect who was a welder and that is why you are pushing this idea of a welders hood?
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Joined: May 9th, 2017, 9:30 pm

October 25th, 2017, 3:45 am #16

The following is my previous quote:
The Hood:  The following was taken from an article in the Napa Register: “She [Cecelia] said he had the hood on, he put the hood on, and there weren’t eye holes,” recalled Collins in a recent interview.  “Instead it was like a welder’s mask, an opening in the front of the mask itself.”  Since Nick’s step-father became a welder at Mare Island in the early fifties, it is likely that he owned a welder’s hood like the one that Cecelia described.  (Today, welders wear helmets.)  

I looked through several years worth of Zodiac information that I have been collecting and found the following:
"Narlow was among the first to respond in September 1969 when the Zodiac stabbed two college students picnicking at Lake Berryessa.  Though stabbed five times, Bryan Hartnell, 20, survived.  Cecelia Shepard, 22, did not.  

But before she died, she was able to give detective Dave Collins a brief description of Zodiac.  "She said he had the hood on, he put the hood on, and there weren't eye hole," recalled Collins in a recent interview.  "Instead it was like a welder's mask, an opening in the front of the mask itself."

Hartnell told investigators that zodiac wore a costume, on the front of which was a circle with a cross through it, identical to the drawings Zodiac had included in some of his letters."

Unfortunately, I was unable to find the source of the information. I believe it was posted in the ZodiacKillerTRUTH Message Board by Seagull, but I could be mistaken.  

As stated above, my personal interest in the welder's hood is due to the fact that my ex-husband's step-father was a welder at Mare Island and it is likely that he would have possessed a welder's hood.  
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Joined: February 23rd, 2007, 11:25 pm

October 25th, 2017, 6:19 am #17

I have studied this case before most of you were born. Never have I read that Cecelia said the hood didn't have holes for the eyes!
What she did say was that she saw Zodiac first without the hood. Then after he came out from behind the tree, she saw him with the costume on and then holding a gun. She stated (and this is not a guess), it is factual,  she said she could see that he had glasses on under the "clip on sun glasses". The hood was shaped like a paper sack, because that is what it was, it was painted black to match the "dickey" like poncho. That costume was put in my car, it was nothing like a welders hood. The logo was not a piece of material with the logo on it, what ever it was ,it was on there permanently, I could not remove it. I thought it was a early Halloween costume put in my brown car by accident. The hood had a odd smell , so I threw that part in the garbage. The dickey part I kept ,because there was enough material for me to make something out of it. It was about one and a half yards long 36 inches wide. It was put away in one of my many boxes with other pieces of material that I collect. I though I had it where I am living now, I looked for it when I realized what I had, that was in1987.  Recently I received a phone call from my ex husband who was moving and was told he found some boxes that belonged to me, that his mother stored for us in her attic sense1977. When he gets settled in his new home he will separate all of the boxes and let me have mine! There is a very good chance that the costume with the logo is in one of those boxes! I am very excited about that, because it is going to change the course of the case in a positive direction. The DNA on it will prove that it is the real killing costume.  
The evidence should fit the crime, not the other way around. Changing the evidence to match a suspect is a shameful crime.
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Joined: May 9th, 2017, 9:30 pm

October 26th, 2017, 1:12 pm #18

I must seem like a "Newbie" to most of you, and as far as message boards are concerned, I am.  I first got involved in this case, inadvertently, on December 20, 1986, at the age of fourteen, when the Zodiac killed Betty Lou Jensen and David Faraday three and a half miles from my home on East Second Street in Benicia.  Since that time, I lived in constant fear and would not drive out on Lake Herman Road.  I got even more involved on August of 1972 when I met my first husband, a man from Vallejo, and again in 1975, when we got married.  After our three year engagement and twenty-four years of a very unhappy marriage; in which he lied to me, betrayed me, drugged me, used me and turned my children against me; I finally divorced him in 1999.  At that time, he stalked me and tried to kill me.  In 2006, after seeing the Zodiac movie with Justin Chambers, I realized that my ex could possibly be the Zodiac.  At that time, I began researching the case and going to law enforcement.  I eventually filled several tubs with information and decided to write a book in order to convince people that he was the Zodiac and get him out of my children's lives and bring justice to the victims and their loved ones.  I spent the next three years writing an 840 page book, based on the life of my ex and facts of the Zodiac case from police reports, news paper articles, etc.  Since that time, several people have asked me to write a sequel, so I have spent the past two years working on my next book about my life, as the wife of a serial killer.  Sandy, I wish you the best of luck in locating your lost items.  I know what it is to wait.  
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