Joined: May 9th, 2017, 9:30 pm

January 9th, 2018, 8:25 pm #31

sandy betts wrote: I have read every report more than a few times and  have spoken to Dave Collins, who was a school mate of my husband. I have never been told or read, that either Cecelia or Bryan said that the hood looked anything like a welders mask. Bryan said it looked like a paper sack, with four corners and flat on top. I am not the only person here, who has spent many years reading everything about this case, none of them read about a welders mask. I am not calling you a liar, I think that somehow you misinterpreted what you read, being that you had your suspect who did have a welders hood and thought it could be what the Zodiac wore. There would be no way that clip-on sun glasses could attach to a welders hood and for Cecelia to be able to see regular glasses under all of that. A welders mask and a black paper sack look nothing at all alike.
With all due respect for your many years of research, I am only quoting what I read.  Unfortunately, I don't have the references.  Still, I don't feel that the case involving my ex revolves around whether or not the hood was a paper sack or a welder's hood.  (Just like it doesn't revolve around the fact that he typically wrote with a blue, felt-tip marker or the fact that his mom worked at Sears, the same store that sold the JC Higgins gun.)  I just thought that it was interesting. In my opinion, the case revolves more around his geographical profile, his physical description, his likeness to the Napa Composite Drawing, the fact that he owned a Chevy Nova, the fact that his name may appear in three of the Zodiac's coded messages and his handwriting.  As I said before, I feel that the topic of the type of hood the Zodiac wore is very much open for debate and all opinions are welcome.       
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Joined: February 23rd, 2007, 11:25 pm

January 10th, 2018, 12:30 am #32

I made a copy of what was put in my car in Napa  Sept 28th or 29th 1969. I and others have put it on, to see what it was like for Zodiac to wear such a hood. The only problem we felt was that the paper made us feel very warm.

Zodiac was sweating under the hood , Hartnell was able to see his wet or greasy hair. Can you explain how such a costume could be made and put in my car with in hours of the crime and before it was ever described in any newspaper? Just a lucky guess by some hoaxer? And that this hoaxer also knew to take my white plastic hollow core clothes line before the crime, the exact type that was used to tie up the victims? Maybe you wouldn't wear such a costume to kill, I know that wouldn't either. But that is what the killer chose to wear for what ever reason only he can explain. You have a right to believe and think what ever you choose. I know what I found ,I can't change what I and my neighbor saw that day. Unfortunately, we didn't know what we had found, we both thought it was a early Halloween costume for some party.
Sadly had we known, this would have changed the Zodiac case and perhaps saved many lives. 
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Zoni-13
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January 10th, 2018, 2:51 am #33

sandy betts wrote: On the Sandy thread, Seagull had posted a picture from the "Berkeley Barb" newspaper1967. It shows two men  in disguises, one is  wearing a paper sack for a hood with large cut outs for the eyes, so it is not as silly as you may think. And that was two years before the lake B attack. The one wearing the paper hood had no problem with wearing it and getting on a motorcycle then driving away. He also had on glasses under his hood. Even if it would he difficult to turn your head from side to side, why would Zodiac need to do that? His victims weren't moving around they were right in front of him. The clip on glasses held it in place and you can turn your head ,it wasn't nailed to his shoulders! My guess is that when he did turn his head was when Bryan was able to see the collar of the killers jacket under the hood.

 V, No I have not read her book yet.

I am happy for her to be able to get her story into a book and wish her luck with many sales!
Yea, I think it's just odd that he would go to the trouble of making an elaborate costume where he had to stitch a design into the front, and then grab a grocery bag, and some paint, for the part that was concealing his face. Maybe he ran out of material, maybe he thought it was just a great idea. Maybe someone was playing a prank on you. Maybe, maybe, maybe....
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mj
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Joined: November 2nd, 2007, 1:53 am

January 10th, 2018, 4:05 pm #34

maybe he gave Sandy his prototype, and made the actual mask of some type of fabric


 
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Joined: February 23rd, 2007, 11:25 pm

January 10th, 2018, 5:55 pm #35

The black paper sack looked as if it was made of material when it was tucked under the poncho part. It was not elaborate like some think. The stitching could have been done with white paint to make it look like it was stitched, like the copy I made in about 15 minutes. Have you looked at the video that shows the copy? You can not tell that it was a paper sack. Don't forget that Bryan did say that it did look like a "paper sack". People have read theories and turned them into facts.  Read all of the police reports! Don't go by what some people think it looked like. There are certain details in those reports that have been overlooked, even by the latest Napa investigators.
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Joined: May 9th, 2017, 9:30 pm

January 29th, 2018, 9:37 pm #36

Something did just occur to me.  Without going through all of the police reports, Bryan Hartnell, did mention, at least once, that the Zodiac was wearing a "hood," which could suggest that Zodiac was wearing a welder's hood.    "Hartnell stated that the assailant was wearing a black ceremonial type "hood," square on top.  In another interview, he called it a "mask" and said that it was like a paper sack, as Sandy has mentioned.  Anyway, just a thought. 

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v
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Joined: February 25th, 2014, 11:43 pm

January 30th, 2018, 3:51 pm #37

MADAMEX.zodiackiller.fr wrote: The Napa Composite Drawing:=12.0ptCecelia Shepard saw the Zodiac 15 minutes before he walked behind a tree and donned his black hood, which she described as a welder’s hood.  (Nick’s father was a welder.)  From that, she was able to give a description to County Deputy Sheriff Dave Collins.  According to Marsha Dorgan of the Napa Register, from that description, Collins was able to make a composite drawing.  He showed that drawing to three girls who were sunbathing. They recognized the man as someone who had been watching them and, later, gave a description to a professional artist who made the Napa Composite Drawing.  

On the other hand, police reports do not suggest that Collins made a sketch.  Rather, they suggest that the girls came forward after hearing about the crime that had occurred at Lake Berryessa.  They may have realized that it was the same man who had been watching them sunbath after hearing the description given to Collins by Cecelia.  

Regardless, the Napa Composite Drawing shows a strong resemblance to Nick.

The following is the article by Dorgan in the Napa Register:

Napa Register Article:

The following was taken from an article in the Napa Register.  It was written by Marsha Dorgan and published on February 24, 2007:

Sept. 1969, Napa County Deputy Sheriff Dave Collins was on routine patrol.  All that changed quickly, changing Collin’s life forever.

He was at Vichy Avenue and Monticello Road when the call came about a double stabbing at Lake Berryessa.  With red lights flashing and sirens wailing, Collins raced to the lake.  The wounded Pacific Union College students – Cecelia Shepard and Bryan Hartnell, both 20 – had been repeatedly stabbed and left to die on an isolated peninsula at the lake in an area called the Oaks, about a quarter-mile north of park headquarters on Knoxville Berryessa Road.  The couple had gone to the lake for a picnic.  Shepard first spotted a man watching them.  A short time later the man attacked the couple after demanding their car keys and money.  Collins and Deputy Ray Land, who had been in St. Helena, were the first to arrive after the call.

“When I got to the scene I found the kids critically injured.  Deputy Land went to help Bryan, and I tried to administer first aid to Cecelia,” he said.  Shepard had been stabbed five times in the back and five times in the front of her body.  “She was conscious, but going in and out of shock.  She was in terrific pain.  She kept asking me for something for the pain, but I didn’t have anything to give her,” Collins said.  “She was cold and shivering.  I got my uniform jacket from my car, wrapped it around her and then wrapped her in a blanket.  I held her.  She was very frightened and kept pleading with me not to leave her.”

Collins said he tried to be comforting but realized he needed to gather as much information about the crime as possible.

“I asked her, Who did this.  Did you know the person?” Collins said.  “She said, ‘no.’”

Although in shock and excruciating pain, Shepard did her best to tell Collins what happened.

She said she saw a man on the roadway watching them about 15 minutes before the attack.  “She said pretty soon he was within 50 to 75 feet of them.  There were trees separating them.  She said she looked up and he was gone.  The next thing she sees is him stepping out from behind a tree pulling an executioner-style hood over his head.  He started walking very fast toward them with a gun in his hand,” Collins said.

Shepard told Collins the man approached, ordered them to stay on the ground and said, “I’m an escaped convict from Montana.  I have a stolen car.  I want your car and money.  I’m going to Mexico.”

“’The kids said, ‘sure’ and put their money and car keys out there for him,” Collins said.

At that point, the killer pulled two pieces of clothes line about two and a half feet long out of his coat and told Shepard to tie up Hartnell.

When Hartnell was hog-tied, the killer used the other rope to hog-tie Shepard.

“He then put the gun in his holster and pulled a knife from the holster on his other hip,” Collins said.  “Cecelia said it looked like a homemade knife, about 11 or 12 inches long.  He started stabbing Bryan in the back until he pretended to be dead,” Collins said.  “When Cecelia realized he did not want to rob them, but kill them, she started screaming.  He turned on her and began stabbing her until she also pretended to be dead.  Then, he stopped and walked away.  Cecelia said he was calm and collected.”

The Zodiac Killer had parked his car next to the victim’s vehicle.  On their car door he wrote the sign of the Zodiac – a circle with a cross through it – as well as the dates of the Vallejo murders, the current date and time and the words “by knife.”

When he left, the kids managed to maneuver until they could untie each other.  “Bryan used his teeth to untie Cecelia.  Although they were in terrific pain and bleeding they were able to get free of the ropes,” Collins said.

“They started yelling for help.  There was a fisherman and his son fishing in a nearby cove.  The fisherman heard their cries for help but was leery, thinking they were trying to lure him to shore to rob him.  When the screams for help continued, he looked with his binoculars and could see they were injured.  But instead of going to them, he went to park headquarters and notified park rangers.”

Thinking they were abandoned, Hartnell tried to crawl to the road for help.  But he was too weak and only made it halfway.  That is where the ranger found him.

Collins said Shepard was the only victim able to give deputies a description of the Zodiac without his hood.

“She was incredible how she answered my questions while lying on this blanket in terrible pain and going in and out of shock.  We used her description of the man to make a composite drawing,” Collins said.  “Investigators canvassed the area with the drawing and found three young women in the same general area who were sunbathing.  They said they saw the same man looking at them and acting suspicious about an hour before he attacked Shepard and Hartnell.  They said for some reason he just up and left.  They were three lucky girls.”  (A second composite drawing was made from a description given by the three girls.)

The ambulance arrived and took the wounded couple to the Queen.  By this time, Shepard was unconscious.  Hartnell survived.  Shepard, who never regained consciousness, died two days later.

Collin’s 2007 Video Interview:

In the video interview with Deputy Sheriff Dave Collins, he said:

Collins – Cecelia said, “I saw this guy.  He was coming down the hillside and he seemed to stop and watch us.  He was looking at us … Pretty soon, he was within 75’ away … he stepped behind a tree.”

Interviewer – Why doesn’t anyone know that she had seen his face … why is that unknown?

Collins – I didn’t report it.

Interviewer – Why didn’t you report it?

Collins – You know, at the time, I didn’t think it was important. 
Dear Madame X< I have your book and I have comments to report but I need a non-public way to communicate. Thanks, v
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Joined: February 25th, 2014, 11:43 pm

January 30th, 2018, 4:06 pm #38

sandy betts wrote: Hartnell gave a description the best that he could.  He didn't get a look at Zodiac's face  like Cecelia did before he put the costume on that covered his face completely . Cecelia was the one who was able to see the eye glasses under the clip on sun glasses. Other wise we wouldn't know that Zodiac did wear glasses. Thank goodness Hartnell was able to see the killers collar to his jacket. Somehow that has been over looked by everyone, making people think the costume was in one piece , when it was actually in two parts, just like what was put in my car! The hood made him look a few inches taller than he really was. I do believe that Zelms and Fouke got a very good look at Zodiac on Jackson St. I think that Kathleen Johns was the best witness of all, if she was a victim and I truly believe that she was. Isobel Watson also gave the same description. Toschi felt she was a victim of Zodiac. Zodiac stayed in touch with K Johns after her abduction, sending her a Halloween card and letting her know that he was watching her, he would also phone her.  He told her he knew she gave birth to another baby girl , proving to her that he was watching her. That is part of his taunting game that he enjoys so much, that many find hard to believe. No one knows what that is like, because it never happened to them.
I've read quite a lot about this ever since I was 17 and now I'm 67. But I've never heard of Isobel Watson. Where can I read about her involvement? Thanks
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Joined: February 23rd, 2007, 11:25 pm

January 30th, 2018, 4:18 pm #39

 V , You can start with page 181-182 of Graysmiths Zodiac book. There were newspaper articles about her encounter as well. It took place on a Friday evening April 7th 1972 about 9 pm. Dave Toschi believed her attacker was Zodiac. I spoke to her several years ago, but she said that that was behind her and did not ever want to talk about it again. I had pictures of suspects that I wanted her to look at , but she refused.
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joku
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Joined: October 13th, 2017, 3:15 pm

January 30th, 2018, 8:46 pm #40

sandy betts wrote: I spoke to her several years ago, but she said that that was behind her and did not ever want to talk about it again. I had pictures of suspects that I wanted her to look at , but she refused.
With all due respect towards Isobel - the attack must've been a very frightening experience for her, but still it's quite difficult for me to understand this attitude. Since there is a possibility that she has not been the only person faced with this criminal, and that some may have even been murdered by him, wouldn't it feel important to help? Maybe she can't offer anything new which is completely fine, or maybe she could at best solve the whole case. Unfortunate...
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