Jdombrowski89
Old Newbie
Joined: June 21st, 2007, 3:30 pm

June 6th, 2012, 5:30 pm #51

Any lumps would probably be a result of the gunshot.As for the gunshot into the vehicle, it could have been a way to terrorize them prior to their murders.I don't think they were thinking it was a cop--like Darlene and Mike thought, since a shot was fired into the vehicle to herd them out.I can't imagine what David and Betty Lou must have been thinking! Most likely a robbery. The ring still bothers me though. He wouldn't have had ahold of it when he fell. No way. Butterbach says he found David grasping the ring while at the hospital. So...?
With the way Butterbach stated he grasped the ring, its not entirely dismissable that he was holding the ring like that when he died. I've seen homicides where the person's hand(s) distort in different ways.What could've happened was he was preparing to slide it off and as he fell, the ring slipped into the position to where Faraday's two fingers were connected as Butterbach said. So to say that it wouldn't have held it when he fell is not really something that's able to be dismissed from homcides I witnessed working for the District Attorney's office. JD
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m13
DOJ
Joined: August 26th, 2008, 11:40 pm

June 6th, 2012, 8:28 pm #52

Why did he get the kids out of the car? Im interested in plausible scenario's that explain why the kids were not killed in the car.
Well there's two scenarios to that. Either:1. He fired the 'warning shots' into the Rambler, through the rear window and the shot that was in the roof and landed on the roof. The kids exit, and as Tom stated ordered them to face the Rambler as they got out.Or2. Z tells the kids to get out. Something happens where him and David get into a scuffle where David gained the large lump on his right cheek, and Z fired the two shots into the Rambler, being almost overtaken by Zodiac. Zodiac regains his 'control' over the kids, and orders Faraday up against the s/w, shoots him, or has Jensen get out, etc, etc. JDIf he forced the kids out of the car he would have had a reason for doing so.
Ok. Once again, if he was only interested in murdering the kids he would have killed them in the car. Like he did later with Mageau and Ferrin.He would only fire in to the car, the "Warning Shot" as we call it, if he was warning them to get out of the car. Right? Make sense? My question doesn't concern what caused them to choose to exit the vehicle, but why Z wanted them out of the vehicle. Tom presented a likely scenario where in David was was facing the car and executed. The circumstances surrounding Betty Lou's position are still unknown. Why did Z want them out of the car?
I Said Good Day!
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shedboy
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shedboy
Old Newbie
Joined: July 15th, 2008, 10:44 pm

June 7th, 2012, 3:06 am #53

Z's original intent may have been to shoot them both while they were in the car. Could the shot through the window have occured during a strugle with a confrontative David? First date, gotta stand up mentality. Perhaps David didnt realize he was stepping out of the car into a life/death situation. The kill shot fired by Z while physically overpowering the teen (being shot #2). Betty attempts to flee in panic past the two. .....I dont see this as far fetched if Z approaches with the safety off, finger on triger and doesnt expect the boy to get out. The tragectory of the shot through the window would probably be telling..... Just a thought.
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mj
VPD
Joined: November 2nd, 2007, 1:53 am

June 8th, 2012, 1:24 am #54

Wasn't this the one Z claimed to have used a penlight taped to his gun as a sight? If he went to all that trouble, he may have felt the need to get them out of the car, and on the run to try out his 'invention'. Upon seeing David, he may have decided not to risk letting him run, lest he get away.
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Mike99
DOJ
Joined: February 26th, 2007, 1:14 am

June 8th, 2012, 1:34 am #55

Hi-I think, and always have thought, that Faraday was shot while standing with his feet up against or near the rear tire. I think the only reason we are debating this is Graysmith and the version he put out in his book. I think it is obvious where he was standing and that he then simply fell straight backwards after the shot.Mike
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shedboy
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shedboy
Old Newbie
Joined: July 15th, 2008, 10:44 pm

June 8th, 2012, 2:43 am #56

Ya know....It's been so long since I read the yellow book that I dont recall Graysmith's take on this. I dont know if there were signs of a struggle (scuff marks in dirt, or additional wounds) Im not sure this subject is even worthy of debate but thanks MJ and Mike for your input.
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Joined: March 4th, 2008, 1:06 am

July 12th, 2012, 5:57 pm #57

Z was obviously attempting to get the couple out of the wagon by shooting at the right rear window showing me at least he was trying to get them out by way of the drivers side door. This did not seem to him to work at least as fast as Z wished (he knew a car or even worse a police vehicle could come by any minute so we have to see this from his perspective) so he climbs on the rear bumper as per Sgt.Lundblad (L commented that the killer must have been of 'short' stature to have to climb on the rear bumper) and shoots into the roof of the wagon.This finally works and we know both were killed.Since the right window was down on the wagon Z may have spoken to them to get out of the wagon. He either said one of four things-in my scenario:I am an plain clothes det.please get out; I want some money,etc.(LB);something is wrong with your vehicle in back (KJ/CJB) or he said get out of the car-no reason given.They were probably frozen with fear - no one can blame them- and with Z under pressure from any passing vehicle any minute Z just started shooting to get them out. At LB he was 'nervous' and wanting to get them tied up,etc.;but not as much, I believe, at LB because they were in an out of the way area, but at LHR they were just to the side of the road where police (and potential civilian witnesses) often checked on the lovers there,and others traveled to work at that hour as we see from the PD reports.If he did have a penlight taped to his gun then it seems likely he wanted the sick 'thrill'(408 code reference ) of 'chasing' one or both (?) down, at least the girl, as he shot David right away to rid himself of a 'male threat ('?).It seems like a learning experience when some 6 months later Z simply walks up to Darlene and Mike while they were in the car and starts shooting almost right away. This time Z said nothing.The hand held light may have been to indicate he was an officer to get them to stay in the car and/ or to blind them and from seeing his face as we see at LB (MM did survive-LB was as we know only about 2 months later).We may see this at SB '63 and LB '69-Z learns by his mistakes.All we can do is see Z's MO and we have a limited number of cases to do so but we do know he could use a deceptive story to gain compliance.
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Paradice
DOJ
Joined: March 9th, 2007, 12:44 pm

July 13th, 2012, 12:49 am #58

I think Z may have wanted his victims running away from him. Perhaps this was incorporated as part of his fantasy after Santa Barbara murders (if he was the killer).
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Nin
DOJ
Joined: August 27th, 2007, 8:24 pm

July 13th, 2012, 2:08 pm #59

I think Z may have wanted his victims running away from him. Perhaps this was incorporated as part of his fantasy after Santa Barbara murders (if he was the killer).
I definetly agree with this statement. If Zodiac was the '63 killer he may bereliving the events via different settings and situations. I could even see CJB as an isolated event, an almost customized setting without the "hassle" of a male presence. Stine on the other hand may have served as an intentional deveation to shift the investigation into the SF Bay area, or as a fullfilment i. e. to kill an isolated male while demonstrating Zodiac's deliberation or reattachment from past events ('63?).Lots of "may", wished there was more "did"..-Nin
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Joined: February 23rd, 2007, 11:25 pm

July 14th, 2012, 6:59 pm #60

Hi-I think, and always have thought, that Faraday was shot while standing with his feet up against or near the rear tire. I think the only reason we are debating this is Graysmith and the version he put out in his book. I think it is obvious where he was standing and that he then simply fell straight backwards after the shot.Mike
I agree with you Mike R, the drawing shows he was standing at the car, and fell backwards. He was facing the car and was probably shot first. I think Z went after the males first because he felt he could control the girls. I believe when he shot David, that made Betty run . He may have told them he was only going to rob them. or he could have pretended he was LE ? I also feel they stood there for a while, because of the traffic just before 11pm. Ricardo and I got a pretty good idea of the traffic at the time . At 11pm no traffic, but may cars and trucks drove by after 10 pm until a few minutes before 11 pm. Humble oil and Syar employees, going to and leaving work at that time is what we felt. I think they were about to drive back to Vallejo about 10:50 ,to get Betty Lou home on time ,and that was when the Z stopped them.
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