Your opinion would be appreciated .....................

Joined: November 1st, 2011, 1:44 pm

March 20th, 2017, 5:34 am #11

What do you think would be the easiest and cheapest change we could make to level the playing field for the HFT PCP and Piston classes???
Equipment does allow advantages and most likely always will, but what change do you think would make the most difference. Would appreciate just one answer from the list below but if you have other ideas please express them. There is no plan by me to ask for any changes but just curious as to what others think about this subject. Been a long winter!

1. Allow rangefinders
2. Allow higher power scopes like Open or WFTF
3. Allow clicking
4. Allow straight jackets
5. Allow attached bipods
6. Use 2 point for Kill or 1 point for face plate hit
7. Don't make the Hunter shooter go first all the time
8. Have a dollar value on air rifles that everyone could afford.(Example $1000)
9. No changes needed! We are happy the way it is?
If you want to "level the playing field" against WFTF and Open shooters, 2,3,4,7 and don't allow sticks or buckets.
If you want to level the playing field against hunter shooters, 9.
If you want to level the playing field against me, go with 5 and I might shoot hunter again.
If you want to level the playing field against everyone, have your club buy a bunch of Marauders and make everyone shoot club guns at matches. Or we can all draw numbers before we shoot and figure out who the winner is.

I think you are confusing a "level playing field" with parity. A level playing field means that everyone has the same opportunity to compete within the division or class they are shooting in. So if we were boxing, the light guys wouldn't have to fight heavy guys, everyone would fight in the same weight class. That's what we have now. People that want to test the limits of precision of their equipment can shoot Open class. People that want to test their ability to dope the wind and hold a gun steady with minimal support can shoot WFTF. People that may not be able to sit on the ground or don't want to invest in a high powered scope or want to simulate what someone considers to be hunting equipment can shoot Hunter.

Instead of levelling the playing field, why don't we institute a handicap system. After 5 matches, you are assigned a handicap based on your score compared to the match high score modified by the Troyer rating of the course. Then we could have the class winners and the High Handicap winner. Of course, we will run into the situation where a mediocre shooter has a good day and beats a bunch of better shooters. But that's how parity works.

Seems like a lot of effort since the only match I know of that awards HOA is the Nationals. And the funny thing about the 2016 Nationals, the HOA shooter was in WFTF in both PCP and Piston. Same with the Grand Prix winners. Why did shooters that could shoot at 20 FPE wearing stabilizing harnesses get beaten by shooters using lower powered guns without harnesses? The same reason that Tiger Woods could beat me at golf with a set of rented womens clubs, with no driver and a baseball bat for a putter. You can give everyone the same arrows, but the best Indians are still going to win.

So I guess you need to add "Turn power down to 12 FPE" to your list if you want Hunter class to have a level playing field against WFTF. One is playing baseball and one is playing cricket, but at least their fields would be level.
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Joined: February 10th, 2014, 8:07 am

March 20th, 2017, 12:12 pm #12

What do you think would be the easiest and cheapest change we could make to level the playing field for the HFT PCP and Piston classes???
Equipment does allow advantages and most likely always will, but what change do you think would make the most difference. Would appreciate just one answer from the list below but if you have other ideas please express them. There is no plan by me to ask for any changes but just curious as to what others think about this subject. Been a long winter!

1. Allow rangefinders
2. Allow higher power scopes like Open or WFTF
3. Allow clicking
4. Allow straight jackets
5. Allow attached bipods
6. Use 2 point for Kill or 1 point for face plate hit
7. Don't make the Hunter shooter go first all the time
8. Have a dollar value on air rifles that everyone could afford.(Example $1000)
9. No changes needed! We are happy the way it is?
..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................nt
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Joined: May 28th, 2009, 1:31 pm

March 20th, 2017, 1:40 pm #13

What do you think would be the easiest and cheapest change we could make to level the playing field for the HFT PCP and Piston classes???
Equipment does allow advantages and most likely always will, but what change do you think would make the most difference. Would appreciate just one answer from the list below but if you have other ideas please express them. There is no plan by me to ask for any changes but just curious as to what others think about this subject. Been a long winter!

1. Allow rangefinders
2. Allow higher power scopes like Open or WFTF
3. Allow clicking
4. Allow straight jackets
5. Allow attached bipods
6. Use 2 point for Kill or 1 point for face plate hit
7. Don't make the Hunter shooter go first all the time
8. Have a dollar value on air rifles that everyone could afford.(Example $1000)
9. No changes needed! We are happy the way it is?
#9.....................NT
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Joined: June 10th, 2014, 6:26 pm

March 20th, 2017, 2:28 pm #14

If you want to "level the playing field" against WFTF and Open shooters, 2,3,4,7 and don't allow sticks or buckets.
If you want to level the playing field against hunter shooters, 9.
If you want to level the playing field against me, go with 5 and I might shoot hunter again.
If you want to level the playing field against everyone, have your club buy a bunch of Marauders and make everyone shoot club guns at matches. Or we can all draw numbers before we shoot and figure out who the winner is.

I think you are confusing a "level playing field" with parity. A level playing field means that everyone has the same opportunity to compete within the division or class they are shooting in. So if we were boxing, the light guys wouldn't have to fight heavy guys, everyone would fight in the same weight class. That's what we have now. People that want to test the limits of precision of their equipment can shoot Open class. People that want to test their ability to dope the wind and hold a gun steady with minimal support can shoot WFTF. People that may not be able to sit on the ground or don't want to invest in a high powered scope or want to simulate what someone considers to be hunting equipment can shoot Hunter.

Instead of levelling the playing field, why don't we institute a handicap system. After 5 matches, you are assigned a handicap based on your score compared to the match high score modified by the Troyer rating of the course. Then we could have the class winners and the High Handicap winner. Of course, we will run into the situation where a mediocre shooter has a good day and beats a bunch of better shooters. But that's how parity works.

Seems like a lot of effort since the only match I know of that awards HOA is the Nationals. And the funny thing about the 2016 Nationals, the HOA shooter was in WFTF in both PCP and Piston. Same with the Grand Prix winners. Why did shooters that could shoot at 20 FPE wearing stabilizing harnesses get beaten by shooters using lower powered guns without harnesses? The same reason that Tiger Woods could beat me at golf with a set of rented womens clubs, with no driver and a baseball bat for a putter. You can give everyone the same arrows, but the best Indians are still going to win.

So I guess you need to add "Turn power down to 12 FPE" to your list if you want Hunter class to have a level playing field against WFTF. One is playing baseball and one is playing cricket, but at least their fields would be level.
Perfectly said, hit the nail on the head! NT
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Joined: October 28th, 2003, 9:58 pm

March 20th, 2017, 5:19 pm #15

What do you think would be the easiest and cheapest change we could make to level the playing field for the HFT PCP and Piston classes???
Equipment does allow advantages and most likely always will, but what change do you think would make the most difference. Would appreciate just one answer from the list below but if you have other ideas please express them. There is no plan by me to ask for any changes but just curious as to what others think about this subject. Been a long winter!

1. Allow rangefinders
2. Allow higher power scopes like Open or WFTF
3. Allow clicking
4. Allow straight jackets
5. Allow attached bipods
6. Use 2 point for Kill or 1 point for face plate hit
7. Don't make the Hunter shooter go first all the time
8. Have a dollar value on air rifles that everyone could afford.(Example $1000)
9. No changes needed! We are happy the way it is?
Give the Hunter guys a card with the yardages on it.

K
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Joined: February 11th, 2002, 6:01 pm

March 20th, 2017, 5:41 pm #16

If you want to "level the playing field" against WFTF and Open shooters, 2,3,4,7 and don't allow sticks or buckets.
If you want to level the playing field against hunter shooters, 9.
If you want to level the playing field against me, go with 5 and I might shoot hunter again.
If you want to level the playing field against everyone, have your club buy a bunch of Marauders and make everyone shoot club guns at matches. Or we can all draw numbers before we shoot and figure out who the winner is.

I think you are confusing a "level playing field" with parity. A level playing field means that everyone has the same opportunity to compete within the division or class they are shooting in. So if we were boxing, the light guys wouldn't have to fight heavy guys, everyone would fight in the same weight class. That's what we have now. People that want to test the limits of precision of their equipment can shoot Open class. People that want to test their ability to dope the wind and hold a gun steady with minimal support can shoot WFTF. People that may not be able to sit on the ground or don't want to invest in a high powered scope or want to simulate what someone considers to be hunting equipment can shoot Hunter.

Instead of levelling the playing field, why don't we institute a handicap system. After 5 matches, you are assigned a handicap based on your score compared to the match high score modified by the Troyer rating of the course. Then we could have the class winners and the High Handicap winner. Of course, we will run into the situation where a mediocre shooter has a good day and beats a bunch of better shooters. But that's how parity works.

Seems like a lot of effort since the only match I know of that awards HOA is the Nationals. And the funny thing about the 2016 Nationals, the HOA shooter was in WFTF in both PCP and Piston. Same with the Grand Prix winners. Why did shooters that could shoot at 20 FPE wearing stabilizing harnesses get beaten by shooters using lower powered guns without harnesses? The same reason that Tiger Woods could beat me at golf with a set of rented womens clubs, with no driver and a baseball bat for a putter. You can give everyone the same arrows, but the best Indians are still going to win.

So I guess you need to add "Turn power down to 12 FPE" to your list if you want Hunter class to have a level playing field against WFTF. One is playing baseball and one is playing cricket, but at least their fields would be level.
I agree that a handicapping "system" can help even things out, but how do you that EQUITABLY for the folks that cant get to matches all that often?

Let the Hunter guys the use "tools" they would use in the field when actually Hunting game critters. If "We" have a concern that the yardage info will be shared/observed/nooticed by the non-Hunter shooters, then squad the hunter guys together or squad them with non- hunter folks like me that'll probably never had a chance at a podium finish (thus it doenst matter if I find out the ranges or not )

Single Digit answer: #2

edit: spelling, naturally.....

Last edited by dan_house on March 20th, 2017, 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 11th, 2002, 6:01 pm

March 20th, 2017, 5:44 pm #17

a FLA I dont know....
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Joined: January 1st, 2012, 11:50 pm

March 20th, 2017, 6:19 pm #18

Give the Hunter guys a card with the yardages on it.

K
I wasn't sure if the OPs intention was to solicit how to even out Hunter PCP vs Hunter Piston, or to bring parity to Hunter vs other Divisions. PCP has some inherent advantages over Piston, so we would need to handicap the PCP in some way in order to achieve that first goal.

Back to K (Knobs):

10) might help scores and make it less work for the Hunter shooter, but it does not encourage development of ranging skills.

Most all "Hunter" field target shooters us mil-dot scopes, or some other stadiametric reticle. Those reticles are designed specifically to range known targets. Give the the shooter something that they can use to practice their reticle range finding. Some standard sized features or maybe a cheat sheet with some target sizes.

In many cases, those "in charge" do NOT want the Hunter shooters using the scopes as intended, or they just want to keep the Hunter scores lower than the Open shooters. If that's happening, you will not have scoring parity with other Divisions unless we allow the same equipment.

What I have been doing at our matches: I do not go to extra efforts to cover targets or bases (at least most targets ). We use only 7 different face plates, with the majority being the ubiquitous squirrel target. The Hunter shooter can learn to apply stadiametric methods and get some semblance of parity for accurately ranging targets when compared to higher power scopes. I encourage it and have even done presentations at past matches on how to utilize that method of range finding. But I also tell shooters not to rely on that method, and that focus range finding can work for close targets when needed (and farther targets if they have a high power scope).

You may see matches where extra efforts have been made to hide targets/features, and the bucket-sitters/bipod-users are not allowed to use high power scopes (no freestyle). Those match directors do not want the Hunter shooters to have parity, so accept it and it's OK.
Last edited by Scotchmo1957 on March 20th, 2017, 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: June 8th, 2014, 9:45 pm

March 20th, 2017, 6:26 pm #19

Springers and PCPs are not intended to compete head to head. Leave the present rules alone and just boost the power in your springers if 12 foot lbs. is causing a problem for you.
Competing against PCP'S.
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Joined: October 28th, 2003, 9:58 pm

March 20th, 2017, 6:29 pm #20

I wasn't sure if the OPs intention was to solicit how to even out Hunter PCP vs Hunter Piston, or to bring parity to Hunter vs other Divisions. PCP has some inherent advantages over Piston, so we would need to handicap the PCP in some way in order to achieve that first goal.

Back to K (Knobs):

10) might help scores and make it less work for the Hunter shooter, but it does not encourage development of ranging skills.

Most all "Hunter" field target shooters us mil-dot scopes, or some other stadiametric reticle. Those reticles are designed specifically to range known targets. Give the the shooter something that they can use to practice their reticle range finding. Some standard sized features or maybe a cheat sheet with some target sizes.

In many cases, those "in charge" do NOT want the Hunter shooters using the scopes as intended, or they just want to keep the Hunter scores lower than the Open shooters. If that's happening, you will not have scoring parity with other Divisions unless we allow the same equipment.

What I have been doing at our matches: I do not go to extra efforts to cover targets or bases (at least most targets ). We use only 7 different face plates, with the majority being the ubiquitous squirrel target. The Hunter shooter can learn to apply stadiametric methods and get some semblance of parity for accurately ranging targets when compared to higher power scopes. I encourage it and have even done presentations at past matches on how to utilize that method of range finding. But I also tell shooters not to rely on that method, and that focus range finding can work for close targets when needed (and farther targets if they have a high power scope).

You may see matches where extra efforts have been made to hide targets/features, and the bucket-sitters/bipod-users are not allowed to use high power scopes (no freestyle). Those match directors do not want the Hunter shooters to have parity, so accept it and it's OK.
Scott,

You are right, but there's no law that says you have to use the card. It'll help new guys learn the game too.

My bet is that if we hand out the cards, there aren't going to be any massive score increases, but there will be a lot of head scrathcing as guys who cuss their 12 power scopes realize they're still missing shots.

I'm not sure handing out cards would raise Open or FTF scores either. I get my butt kicked by the wind.

JMO

Knobs
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