Thinking outside the Bucket for HFT

Thinking outside the Bucket for HFT

Joined: November 15th, 2007, 4:52 am

September 24th, 2011, 4:01 pm #1

All this talk about changing our game and the rules to accomadate our physically disabled is all well and good as long as we don't lose sight of the reason why.

In Mike Aber's post it started off with the reasoning being the rule change would make shooters with physical limitations feel more comfortable because it makes them stand out if an exception is made on their behalf.

It was abundantly obvious by the responses in Mike Aber's post that virtually any club, if they haven't already, would be happy to make an exception to the written rule to accomadate a shooter with disabilities.

But of course, one thing always leads to another. In Tony's post, it gets stirred up a little more, and in argument for removing the bucket height restricton, the viewpoint that there's no " stability advantage" to using a higher seat was quickly used. That viewpoint was then expanded on by stating that there is actually a "stability advantage" to using a lower seat in HFT and if anything there should be a height minimum.

So how far do we need to take this? It seems that a simple "Exceptions can be made to accomadate participants with Disabilities" clause would have solved the original issue.

Not to mention, that any HFT shooter can use shooting sticks from the standing position and still be completely within the rules and it is a common method used in Field Hunting. One could choose to "think outside the bucket" to find an alternative instead of criticizing the original folks who thoughtfully created the HFT Class in the first place.

Now before anybody trys to tell me I'm heartless, don't even get me started. Being a Father of 2 with LIFELONG disabilities I'm very aware of the physical and psychological challenges that accompany disabilities.

I'm not even opposed to removing the height restriction on the seat as long as it doesn't turn into a "seat minimum". If that's what it takes to keep our beloved "physically challenged" peers happy and shooting then I'm all for it. However, we've gone from a from a 6" bumbag to a 15" seat and now were talking 20" and higher which isn't to far from standing stability wise which we can already do "within the rules".

So, do we really need to actually changes the rules? Is it really so hard to make an exception and still make our physically challenged feel valid? Or maybe this topic has simply been overly spun from what its original author's intention was dubbed for....Awareness.


Lonnie Smith
Associate Match Director DFTC
http://www.diablofieldtarget.org/home.html

"It doesn't get done til someone does it"
Last edited by AirSmithCA on September 24th, 2011, 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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-bp
Joined: June 5th, 2009, 4:21 pm

September 24th, 2011, 5:26 pm #2

"However, we've gone from a from a 6" bumbag to a 15" seat and now were talking 20" and higher which isn't to far from standing stability wise which we can already do "within the rules"."

that's a pretty ridiculous statement, saying that sitting on a 20" bucket isn't far from standing. it's quite a distortion. i'll sit on a 20" bucket and you stand. i think that will prove my point.

"So, do we really need to actually changes the rules? Is it really so hard to make an exception and still make our physically challenged feel valid?"

yes it is. no one wants to ask for an exception every time they participate in a match.

are you upset that someone suggests we need a change in the rules?

why the demeaning comments?

do you have something to lose if the rules are changed?

-bp
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Joined: September 7th, 2001, 3:52 am

September 24th, 2011, 6:07 pm #3

And all the debate, when there already exist rules allowing Match Directors latitude to accomodate. No need to jump down the man's throat by attacking his valid post as "a pretty ridiculous statement", "quite a distortion", and "demeaning comments". I read absolutely nothing ridiculous or demeaning in his post.
Last edited by compressive on September 24th, 2011, 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lhd
Joined: January 9th, 2002, 2:30 am

September 24th, 2011, 6:09 pm #4

"However, we've gone from a from a 6" bumbag to a 15" seat and now were talking 20" and higher which isn't to far from standing stability wise which we can already do "within the rules"."

that's a pretty ridiculous statement, saying that sitting on a 20" bucket isn't far from standing. it's quite a distortion. i'll sit on a 20" bucket and you stand. i think that will prove my point.

"So, do we really need to actually changes the rules? Is it really so hard to make an exception and still make our physically challenged feel valid?"

yes it is. no one wants to ask for an exception every time they participate in a match.

are you upset that someone suggests we need a change in the rules?

why the demeaning comments?

do you have something to lose if the rules are changed?

-bp
While its all well and good to be constantly hashing and rehashing this "I don't want to HAVE to ask every time, or have an "asterisk" after my name", IF ITS a REAL PROBLEM, but I think its a made up "problem". It reminds me of once seeing a row of handicapped spaces in the parking lot next to the basketball courts in a public park.

First off, shooters AT the matches, including the MD's generally do NOT get all anal about the exact letter of the rules and go around with a measuring stick checking to see if a bucket is an inch too high, in fact most of em prolly don't even remember the wording of most rules. But more importantly, if a guy needs an exception for some sort of physical issue, its across the the board common that is given, with NO referring to rules!

Since DAY ONE, FT clubs have adhered to the caveat that its the match directors perogative to rule on equipment and shooter position issues that occur at a match, meaning if somebody complains, the MD can look it over and say yay or nay. It is completely unheard of for a guy with a physical issue to be denied some variance he needs that would allow him to compete.

Now, once a guy's special situation is known, I really can't imagine he needs to ask over and over and over again, so unless he goes to several matches a month and its a DIFFERENT club each time, small chance he won't be remembered, right? So wheres the BEEF?
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Joined: September 24th, 2010, 3:28 pm

September 24th, 2011, 6:34 pm #5



Thanks,
---Richard
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Joined: November 15th, 2007, 4:52 am

September 24th, 2011, 6:49 pm #6

"However, we've gone from a from a 6" bumbag to a 15" seat and now were talking 20" and higher which isn't to far from standing stability wise which we can already do "within the rules"."

that's a pretty ridiculous statement, saying that sitting on a 20" bucket isn't far from standing. it's quite a distortion. i'll sit on a 20" bucket and you stand. i think that will prove my point.

"So, do we really need to actually changes the rules? Is it really so hard to make an exception and still make our physically challenged feel valid?"

yes it is. no one wants to ask for an exception every time they participate in a match.

are you upset that someone suggests we need a change in the rules?

why the demeaning comments?

do you have something to lose if the rules are changed?

-bp
.....yes it is. no one wants to ask for an exception every time they participate in a match....

They would only have to ask once. But I appreciate your candid answer.


....are you upset that someone suggests we need a change in the rules?...

I didn't think so. But, on the other hand, Maybe I am. There were some demeaning comments on the "wisdom" of the original 15" rule. It took a lot of thoughtfulness to organize the Hunter class. I wasn't involved in it personally, but the 15" rule was to accomodate people with the limitations.

like I said, I'm fine with it if that is what its going to take to keep our Physically challenged participants happy and shooting. But I would oppose it turning into a minimum seat height rule.


....why the demeaning comments?...

I resent your implication.

I'm simply pointing out that there are other alternatives if people think outside the box. (or the bucket in this case). That works both ways to. From the organizations side of things and the participants. When people have disabilitites and don't want to be treated like there different (like my daughter) they find a way to adapt and thrive.

We've had a few fellas at our club (Mike Aber included) that haven't been able to sit down for various physical reasons. I've recomended to all of them to use tall sticks or use a tall bucket if they wanted. None of them have done it! They have all chosen to shoot standing without supports. Yet weve had another shooter, capable of sitting, using an upside down bucket that was slightly taller than 15" and we allowed it becasue thats what he had.

Weve been flexible enough to accomodate shooters on the clubs side of things and it sounds like everyone else is willing to.


...do you have something to lose if the rules are changed...?

No, but apparently you think that you do if the rules are not changed. If your point to me is that its to hard to shoot standing with sticks then perhaps you are more worried about your score than being able to shoot comfortably and enjoy the experience.

IMO, It would be a lot easier to shoot standing with the supports than without... and yes, I've tried it.

regards




Lonnie Smith
Associate Match Director DFTC
http://www.diablofieldtarget.org/home.html

"It doesn't get done til someone does it"
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-bp
Joined: June 5th, 2009, 4:21 pm

September 24th, 2011, 7:26 pm #7

And all the debate, when there already exist rules allowing Match Directors latitude to accomodate. No need to jump down the man's throat by attacking his valid post as "a pretty ridiculous statement", "quite a distortion", and "demeaning comments". I read absolutely nothing ridiculous or demeaning in his post.
how about:

"However, we've gone from a from a 6" bumbag to a 15" seat and now were talking 20" and higher which isn't to far from standing stability wise which we can already do "within the rules"."

comparing sitting on a 20" bucket to standing is pretty ridiculous and quite a distortion.

funny how nobody likes logic

back to you, chet

-bp

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-bp
Joined: June 5th, 2009, 4:21 pm

September 24th, 2011, 7:33 pm #8

While its all well and good to be constantly hashing and rehashing this "I don't want to HAVE to ask every time, or have an "asterisk" after my name", IF ITS a REAL PROBLEM, but I think its a made up "problem". It reminds me of once seeing a row of handicapped spaces in the parking lot next to the basketball courts in a public park.

First off, shooters AT the matches, including the MD's generally do NOT get all anal about the exact letter of the rules and go around with a measuring stick checking to see if a bucket is an inch too high, in fact most of em prolly don't even remember the wording of most rules. But more importantly, if a guy needs an exception for some sort of physical issue, its across the the board common that is given, with NO referring to rules!

Since DAY ONE, FT clubs have adhered to the caveat that its the match directors perogative to rule on equipment and shooter position issues that occur at a match, meaning if somebody complains, the MD can look it over and say yay or nay. It is completely unheard of for a guy with a physical issue to be denied some variance he needs that would allow him to compete.

Now, once a guy's special situation is known, I really can't imagine he needs to ask over and over and over again, so unless he goes to several matches a month and its a DIFFERENT club each time, small chance he won't be remembered, right? So wheres the BEEF?
i'll try again:

i want to shoot within AAFTA rules.

i DON'T want to ask for special dispensation.

i have a hard time getting up from a 15" bucket.

if i get special dispensation from the MD for a seat, i'm not playing by the rules.

allowing "anyone and everyone" to decide if they want to sit on a seat that is up to 20" high does not seem like a very big deal. if it is, please, for god's sake, say why.

and try to make it something other than:

-we don't want to change the rules
-it'll cause confusion
-people will fall off tall buckets
-the rules are fine just like they are
-it would give an unfair advantage
-rodney would have wanted it that way

-bp





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Joined: September 7th, 2001, 3:52 am

September 24th, 2011, 8:53 pm #9

how about:

"However, we've gone from a from a 6" bumbag to a 15" seat and now were talking 20" and higher which isn't to far from standing stability wise which we can already do "within the rules"."

comparing sitting on a 20" bucket to standing is pretty ridiculous and quite a distortion.

funny how nobody likes logic

back to you, chet

-bp
As seen in your typically-combative post, he compared 20" AND HIGHER to standing. Back to you, Bubba!
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Joined: October 19th, 2005, 12:48 am

September 24th, 2011, 9:17 pm #10

i'll try again:

i want to shoot within AAFTA rules.

i DON'T want to ask for special dispensation.

i have a hard time getting up from a 15" bucket.

if i get special dispensation from the MD for a seat, i'm not playing by the rules.

allowing "anyone and everyone" to decide if they want to sit on a seat that is up to 20" high does not seem like a very big deal. if it is, please, for god's sake, say why.

and try to make it something other than:

-we don't want to change the rules
-it'll cause confusion
-people will fall off tall buckets
-the rules are fine just like they are
-it would give an unfair advantage
-rodney would have wanted it that way

-bp




of the excuses. LOL! How about...............
Because your grandmother wears army boots!
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