I have a question about regulated guns.....

I have a question about regulated guns.....

Joined: March 6th, 2011, 5:10 am

March 2nd, 2012, 1:20 pm #1

I know that shot count on a regulated gun increases for any given fill pressure. Why?? Does hammer bounce get negated because the air available for the one shot is only getting used, not the main tank? If turning the hammer spring tension down on my Royale to go from 920 to say 900 fps, will my shot count on the reg increase? Or does the reg get a metered amount of air and what you do with it is your business. I thought because this reg is preset, I would get a fixed amount of shots, and shot speed would not change that.

Winds light and variable!
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Joined: April 1st, 2009, 3:18 am

March 2nd, 2012, 1:36 pm #2

...the air pressure used for each shot is maintained at a constant, equal pressure until the unregulated feed side reaches equalibrium with the regulator. Meaning, for example, a fill of 3k psi tapers off until the bottle/tank pressure reaches the regulated pressure, of say, 1200 psi. What happens is a bit of efficiency. The regulated side will only produce a given pressure ensuring the shot cycle maintains a consistant behavior each and every shot. The valve will stay open the same duration.

Unregulated example, say 3k psi, the first shot the pressure drops to say 2,950. The next shot 2,900, etc. As the pressure drops, the factor of pressure drop increases because there is less pressure acting on keeping the valve closed. As this pressure drop occurs, more and more air is used for each and every shot; more pressure, valve closes faster; less pressure, valve closes more slowly. If shot consistancy (fps) is found in an unregluted system, the trade off comes in the form of: first series of shots use less volume, but at higer psi; the later shots use less psi, but greater volume of air.

If this is wrong, by all means correct me.

"The majority of things in our lives are created by folks no smarter than the rest. Afterall, the world is comprised, and operated by C average people intellctually, academically, and morally. These people are often the great pioneers that set the precedent for what excellence should be."
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Joined: September 15th, 2000, 3:23 pm

March 2nd, 2012, 1:38 pm #3

I know that shot count on a regulated gun increases for any given fill pressure. Why?? Does hammer bounce get negated because the air available for the one shot is only getting used, not the main tank? If turning the hammer spring tension down on my Royale to go from 920 to say 900 fps, will my shot count on the reg increase? Or does the reg get a metered amount of air and what you do with it is your business. I thought because this reg is preset, I would get a fixed amount of shots, and shot speed would not change that.

Winds light and variable!
a reg installed into an action doesn't mean the action WILL get more shots per fill. It very well may, but not always the case. A reg uses up high pressure air space, and depending on the configuration of the action, may indeed loose shot count. A big part of the reason that actions do pick up shot count on a reg is that they are set to operate somewhere below the peak of the power curve. Say the gun will peak at 29ft/lbs without as reg. Installing a reg set to produce say 25 or 24 ft/lbs will yield a higher shot count becuase less air is being allowed to feed each shot by the reg.

The Royale is a bit different, in that the reg is external to the actual air supply, and will not infrindge on high side air capacity. Turning down the hammer spring tension to lower velocity SHOULD increase your shot count. A reg does meter air in the regard that it keeps a consistant set pressure of air volume available to the valve for each shot. Lets just say that the one on the Royale is set for @ 1800psi. The present hammer spring tension may take advantage of say 80% of the 1800psi air available for each shot. Reducing the spring tension may allow the striker to only use 70% of the regulated volume per shot, and so on. The less air used per shot also means that less air will have to travel through the reg from the high side to bring the regulated volume back up to the set pressure of the reg. Less air used per shot leades to more shots per fill.

This is a generalization in terms of the numbers I provided, but should be close enough... But, I will caution, it doesn't ALWAYS work out this way. In addition to the reg set pressure, there is also a balance between hammer weight, hammer spring tension and potential, valve flow, and so on. There can come a point where reducing spring tension can lead to more air being used per shot without seeing any gains or losses in velocity via an increased tendancy for the hammer to create valve bounce.

Hope this helps...

Regards,
DaveG
See more picts @http://davegcustomstocks.com
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Joined: March 6th, 2011, 5:10 am

March 2nd, 2012, 2:30 pm #4

I am after. I thought all the air voided the reg on each and every shot, no matter what hammer setting. That is not the case. And evening out that peak pressure of the sweet spot makes all the sense to me of increasing shot counts with a reg. Thank you.

Winds light and variable!
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Joined: January 21st, 2003, 4:28 pm

March 2nd, 2012, 2:48 pm #5

I know that shot count on a regulated gun increases for any given fill pressure. Why?? Does hammer bounce get negated because the air available for the one shot is only getting used, not the main tank? If turning the hammer spring tension down on my Royale to go from 920 to say 900 fps, will my shot count on the reg increase? Or does the reg get a metered amount of air and what you do with it is your business. I thought because this reg is preset, I would get a fixed amount of shots, and shot speed would not change that.

Winds light and variable!
It lets you use a much wider range of fill pressures. A non-regged gun may have a sweet spot from 29000psi to 1800psi for example... Say filling to 2900 and shooting down to 1800psi gives you a 20fps extreme spread. You can fill it higher than 2900 but that suddenly puts you at a 50fps extreme spread (For many of us that translates into too much POI shift and we might decide those are non-useable shots). Where the reg pays off is that you can fill much higher and still see a nice flat shot curve. Put a reg in the same gun and now you can suddenly fill to 3300psi or even 3500psi and still see your 20fps extreme spread all the way down to 1800psi. That's where the reg gets you your shot count advantage... But fill the regged gun to 2900psi (in this example anyway...real world details may vary of course)and it probably won't be much different than a well tuned non-regged gun....

I hope that helps,

Scott in CO
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Joined: April 3rd, 2011, 4:28 pm

March 2nd, 2012, 3:21 pm #6

Guns like the Royale Dave G was mentioning have a fill pressure of just 3000 psi, so you can not really fill that any higher to get the extra shots.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2010, 6:09 am

March 2nd, 2012, 3:34 pm #7

I know that shot count on a regulated gun increases for any given fill pressure. Why?? Does hammer bounce get negated because the air available for the one shot is only getting used, not the main tank? If turning the hammer spring tension down on my Royale to go from 920 to say 900 fps, will my shot count on the reg increase? Or does the reg get a metered amount of air and what you do with it is your business. I thought because this reg is preset, I would get a fixed amount of shots, and shot speed would not change that.

Winds light and variable!
Let me try in a few words. Let's assume the goal of the gun is most amount of shots @ 900fps within a 20fps spread.

Non-regulated gun with XXXcc reservoir. Gun is tuned to shoot it's sweet spot between 2800# and 2200#. Fill it to 3000# and those first shots are out of desired velocity range untill the reservoir pressure drops to 2800# and then the shots after 2200# are out of the desired velocity range. Say 30 shots in the sweet spot using 600psi of reservoir capacity.

Same gun with a regulator. Gun is tuned to shoot 900fps at say 1800# in the action. You can fill the gun to 3000# (or higher?)and if the regulator is working correctly will give shots at 900fps all the way down to 1800#. Once the reservoir reaches 1800# the regulator bypasses itself and the valve should start to "self-regulate" to some degree giving some more shots of decreasing fps until they fall out of the 20fps zone. Say 45 shots and using 1400# of reservoir capacity.

More usable psi in the reservoir to use for shots. The total volume of air for each shot at 900fps should be the same for each gun. High pressure for lower duration should be the same VOLUME of air as lower pressure but a longer duration. These may not be perfect numbers but this is how I understand it and if I'm mistaken let me know.

Doug
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Joined: May 12th, 2001, 1:29 pm

March 2nd, 2012, 3:47 pm #8

I know that shot count on a regulated gun increases for any given fill pressure. Why?? Does hammer bounce get negated because the air available for the one shot is only getting used, not the main tank? If turning the hammer spring tension down on my Royale to go from 920 to say 900 fps, will my shot count on the reg increase? Or does the reg get a metered amount of air and what you do with it is your business. I thought because this reg is preset, I would get a fixed amount of shots, and shot speed would not change that.

Winds light and variable!
...as unregulated ones, and eliminating it will therefore increase useful shots per fill by a similar factor.

The reason a regulator will (usually) increase shots per fill isn't because less air is used per shot, but simply because it allows using more of the air of the fill before MV consistency - and therefore accuracy - deteriorate to an unacceptable degree.

So - the advantage of the reg comes - not from using less air per shot - but from using more air per fill.

Steve
Last edited by pneuguy on March 2nd, 2012, 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: March 6th, 2011, 5:10 am

March 2nd, 2012, 3:55 pm #9

Guns like the Royale Dave G was mentioning have a fill pressure of just 3000 psi, so you can not really fill that any higher to get the extra shots.
Winds light and variable!
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Joined: December 13th, 2004, 9:23 pm

March 2nd, 2012, 4:05 pm #10

I know that shot count on a regulated gun increases for any given fill pressure. Why?? Does hammer bounce get negated because the air available for the one shot is only getting used, not the main tank? If turning the hammer spring tension down on my Royale to go from 920 to say 900 fps, will my shot count on the reg increase? Or does the reg get a metered amount of air and what you do with it is your business. I thought because this reg is preset, I would get a fixed amount of shots, and shot speed would not change that.

Winds light and variable!
on a reged gun just more gas ahead not as used up in the main tube prior to entering the reg'ed locked chamber...for that powder puff smooth and consistent shot...figure maybe a shot or two extra by lower fps.... I freak with my buddy's edgun! Also a debouncer will also create ideal open duration and smoother transfer of your gaz to yer pellet...
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