how many Open Class Ft shooters would give up there straps it bypods were allowed?

how many Open Class Ft shooters would give up there straps it bypods were allowed?

Joined: February 27th, 2003, 4:08 am

October 19th, 2010, 11:03 pm #1

I am curious with all the talk about Hunter Class rules and the limitations on scope mag to 12x as the great equalizer between springer and PCP shooters. Which I totally disagree with the logic of Springer's competing head to head with PCP's but that's a different topic.

What if you were given the choice to use your Open class rig with either a Bypod or shooting straps & jackets & still use any scope mag for ranging. Would you give up your straps & jackets to use a by-pod instead. Seems to me that with the level of contraptions and other shooting aids now used in the Open classes it would not make much difference.

As an alternate I would wonder if allowing an Open Hunter class would increase participation and encourage new shooters to give it a try? My biggest issue with the Current Hunter Class is the 12x limitation to ranging perhaps I could live with say 20x though.

Not saying we should necessarily change the rules but just putting it out there for discussion.

" The world is not really round It is full of Peaks and Valleys"
Dave F.
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lhd
Joined: January 9th, 2002, 2:30 am

October 20th, 2010, 12:15 am #2

Its silly to even THINK that a guy sitting on a bucket and using a bipod to steady his aim can even BEGIN to get as steady as a guy sitting on a buttpad all wrapped up tight like so many guys can. Sure, the harness can help some folks that cannot get their arms wrapped around their knees get in some semblance of steadiness and hold their own, but make no mistake, the sitting on the ground setup is much steadier than sitting up high with the gun rested on a bipod.

The only reason I am even trying to get used to Hunter class is my bad shoulder and back are making it so hard to get up and down off the ground! If I had some sorta electric lift that I could sit on and lower myself as low as I want, it wold be to right around 4"-5" off the ground so my thighs could help steady my arms and the gun could rest on my knee. Course that lift would then need to hoist me back up to a much higher position so I could stand up offn it.

Now there IS one thing .... at first it SEEMS pretty steady when sitting on that bucket, looking thru that 12X scope, but it cause 12X makes it SEEM less wobbly! Try looking at 40X-50X for a reality check!
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Joined: February 27th, 2003, 4:08 am

October 20th, 2010, 12:48 am #3

I am not arguing the merits of which shooting aids are more beneficial just that it seems sensible to allow by-pods in the open class as an alternate to using straps and jackets. If it were simply a shooters choice then some shooters who simply want to compete in a truly open class could choose there poison.
I am just like you looking at the Hunter Class because it is getting much more uncomfortable for me to get up and down and sitting on a bucket or short stool with a by-pod would make it more comfortable at days end. However I am having reservations about the 12x scope limitations.
I guess there is nothing keeping me from shooting anyway I want on a local club level. Maybe I will just call it the Outlaw Open Class LOL.

" The world is not really round It is full of Peaks and Valleys"
Dave F.
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lhd
Joined: January 9th, 2002, 2:30 am

October 20th, 2010, 12:54 am #4

Not arguing? Why not just TRY it Dave?
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Joined: March 15th, 2009, 10:27 pm

October 20th, 2010, 1:17 am #5

I am curious with all the talk about Hunter Class rules and the limitations on scope mag to 12x as the great equalizer between springer and PCP shooters. Which I totally disagree with the logic of Springer's competing head to head with PCP's but that's a different topic.

What if you were given the choice to use your Open class rig with either a Bypod or shooting straps & jackets & still use any scope mag for ranging. Would you give up your straps & jackets to use a by-pod instead. Seems to me that with the level of contraptions and other shooting aids now used in the Open classes it would not make much difference.

As an alternate I would wonder if allowing an Open Hunter class would increase participation and encourage new shooters to give it a try? My biggest issue with the Current Hunter Class is the 12x limitation to ranging perhaps I could live with say 20x though.

Not saying we should necessarily change the rules but just putting it out there for discussion.

" The world is not really round It is full of Peaks and Valleys"
Dave F.
I wish it was simpler. Man or Woman, gun, chair or seat cushion. Good luck. Seems like a more equal footing for any classes..but I am also for whatever helps bring folks into the sport...I shoot springer class in our group, but I don't use straps. I'm not a great shooter by any means, but it seems more comfortable and natural for me than the few times I used them..There's enough to worry about with rangefinding, making sure you don't have any cant in your hold, breathing etc...just my opinion..
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Joined: October 27th, 2003, 11:32 pm

October 20th, 2010, 4:49 am #6

I am curious with all the talk about Hunter Class rules and the limitations on scope mag to 12x as the great equalizer between springer and PCP shooters. Which I totally disagree with the logic of Springer's competing head to head with PCP's but that's a different topic.

What if you were given the choice to use your Open class rig with either a Bypod or shooting straps & jackets & still use any scope mag for ranging. Would you give up your straps & jackets to use a by-pod instead. Seems to me that with the level of contraptions and other shooting aids now used in the Open classes it would not make much difference.

As an alternate I would wonder if allowing an Open Hunter class would increase participation and encourage new shooters to give it a try? My biggest issue with the Current Hunter Class is the 12x limitation to ranging perhaps I could live with say 20x though.

Not saying we should necessarily change the rules but just putting it out there for discussion.

" The world is not really round It is full of Peaks and Valleys"
Dave F.
but I will experiment with a bipod and the prone position as well...

Regards,

Tony
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Joined: June 3rd, 2006, 2:54 am

October 20th, 2010, 5:21 am #7

I am curious with all the talk about Hunter Class rules and the limitations on scope mag to 12x as the great equalizer between springer and PCP shooters. Which I totally disagree with the logic of Springer's competing head to head with PCP's but that's a different topic.

What if you were given the choice to use your Open class rig with either a Bypod or shooting straps & jackets & still use any scope mag for ranging. Would you give up your straps & jackets to use a by-pod instead. Seems to me that with the level of contraptions and other shooting aids now used in the Open classes it would not make much difference.

As an alternate I would wonder if allowing an Open Hunter class would increase participation and encourage new shooters to give it a try? My biggest issue with the Current Hunter Class is the 12x limitation to ranging perhaps I could live with say 20x though.

Not saying we should necessarily change the rules but just putting it out there for discussion.

" The world is not really round It is full of Peaks and Valleys"
Dave F.
...to shooting off a seat with a bipod. The only thing that I have found is that it is easier on your back, for those (like me) that have a bad back but live with it.

Shooting open class with a harness has (for me) the same amount of wobble area in the kz (caused by heartbeat) that I have shooting HFT with my Marauder and 12X scope using shooting sticks.

Shooting prone off of a stock mounted bipod is steadier once you get into position. Low vegetation could hamper being able to clearly see the target, but you have kneeling, standing, or sitting on a 15" stool with shooting sticks to use at your disposal.

The limiting factor that I have found is ranging the target using the adjustable objective on a scope at the 12X setting. What is IMPERATIVE (again, in my opinion) is good quality glass.

FWIW, I used a Bushnell Legend scope (5-15x40) set at 12X. The glass is clear and has a mildot reticle. The front AO knob is a bit stiff to turn, but I plan on wrapping skateboard tape around it for a positive grip. The scope has no sunshade and when shooting into the sun, as we did this past weekend in Flagstaff, I got a LOT of flare. It was difficult to get clarity and I ended up taking my best guess at some of the longer distances. I don't necessarily find this a problem because it is easily overcome.

What I did find was that even at 12X the target was easily discernible and if I judged my distances correctly, could have knocked over any of the targets if I do my part.

The draw to HFT, in my opinion, is allowing someone with entry level equipment to get into the game without the game becoming an equipment race. I shot HFT with my Marauder this past Saturday and found it to be more fun than shooting open class.

If someone spends the time to learn their own individual gun and then practices with that set up, there should be no problem with them having a good time at any given match. Whether they win or not is inconsequential, but they will knock over their fair share of targets and have a blast doing it.

I can understand the rationale for introducing HFT to this game; affordable guns with affordable scopes shot under the same conditions as others with similar equipment equals a lot of fun. At least that is how I see it.

Best regards,
Mark Kauffman
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Joined: March 29th, 2010, 6:51 am

October 20th, 2010, 4:24 pm #8

Reading Mark's post was like reading my mind. I am new to FT and if it were not for Hunter Class I would never have attended a match. When I heard about the class I thought, this is a class that I can participate in with my existing equipment and if I do my homework I can be competitive and have fun.

If you are going to grow the FT sport you have to attract new shooters. The best way to attract them is to lower the barriers to participation. If you own a sub 20 fpe air rifle, you can go to Home Depot and, for about $8.00, buy a bucket and a couple of stakes and shot a HFT match (and not have to be a contortionist to do so) AND with a little work be competitive. You don't have to be a novice to shoot HFT either it is challenging for all levels of shooters. Like Mark said if you can get the Marauder owners to get involved in the sport you should see the ranks grow quickly.

The quickest way to squash participation is to create a situation where more exotic and expensive equipment has a distinct advantage in a class. That is what the Open classes are for and it gives those who want to move up a clear path to do so. I think limiting HFT to sporter/hunting type rifles with 12x scopes is ideal. Many people will use the HFT matches for nothing more than an opportunity to improve their hunting and marksmanship skills and spend time with a lot of great people. I can't think of a better way to spend an afernoon.

Jim in Sacramento
Last edited by 22Jim on October 20th, 2010, 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lhd
Joined: January 9th, 2002, 2:30 am

October 20th, 2010, 6:20 pm #9

...to shooting off a seat with a bipod. The only thing that I have found is that it is easier on your back, for those (like me) that have a bad back but live with it.

Shooting open class with a harness has (for me) the same amount of wobble area in the kz (caused by heartbeat) that I have shooting HFT with my Marauder and 12X scope using shooting sticks.

Shooting prone off of a stock mounted bipod is steadier once you get into position. Low vegetation could hamper being able to clearly see the target, but you have kneeling, standing, or sitting on a 15" stool with shooting sticks to use at your disposal.

The limiting factor that I have found is ranging the target using the adjustable objective on a scope at the 12X setting. What is IMPERATIVE (again, in my opinion) is good quality glass.

FWIW, I used a Bushnell Legend scope (5-15x40) set at 12X. The glass is clear and has a mildot reticle. The front AO knob is a bit stiff to turn, but I plan on wrapping skateboard tape around it for a positive grip. The scope has no sunshade and when shooting into the sun, as we did this past weekend in Flagstaff, I got a LOT of flare. It was difficult to get clarity and I ended up taking my best guess at some of the longer distances. I don't necessarily find this a problem because it is easily overcome.

What I did find was that even at 12X the target was easily discernible and if I judged my distances correctly, could have knocked over any of the targets if I do my part.

The draw to HFT, in my opinion, is allowing someone with entry level equipment to get into the game without the game becoming an equipment race. I shot HFT with my Marauder this past Saturday and found it to be more fun than shooting open class.

If someone spends the time to learn their own individual gun and then practices with that set up, there should be no problem with them having a good time at any given match. Whether they win or not is inconsequential, but they will knock over their fair share of targets and have a blast doing it.

I can understand the rationale for introducing HFT to this game; affordable guns with affordable scopes shot under the same conditions as others with similar equipment equals a lot of fun. At least that is how I see it.

Best regards,
Mark Kauffman
Absolute steadiest position for any shooter capable of comfortably shooting prone. That said, there are very very few shooters willing and able to shoot prone well, plus, courses are usually not cleared well enough for such a low barrel level, which to me, is a "good" thing.

Way back, when I was "campaigning" for Hunter class to be fired on the SAME course as FT (rather than a separate game played on a different course which many, if not most of the "powers that be" in the regular AAFTA upper echelon wanted at that time), I knew it was imperative that a "handicap" be imposed BECAUSE of the ability to use the bipod or shooting stix, esp from the PRONE position! The most appropriate handicap is to limit scope power, and thus acuity and ranging ability.

It was obsious to me (after trying it) that though the bucket allowed easier going for the guys that needed if due to back or other physical issues, there was nothing to be gained by this with respect to steadiness of aim, say, were younger fitter shooters to adopt it as well, due to the relative "tippyness" that occurs when you get your shoulders that high up away from your knees.

BUT, for sure there IS a little aid with the stix or bipod if use from a low sitting position, and its ONLY the 12X scope rule, hopefully aided and abetted by the ETHICS of the shooter in using a light sporter type gun with no adjustable buttplate and big fat cheekpiece that helps keep it "evened up" with the other guys.

Last edited by lhd on October 20th, 2010, 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: June 3rd, 2006, 2:54 am

October 20th, 2010, 7:06 pm #10

...that relates to your last comment,"....hopefully aided and abetted by the ETHICS of the shooter in using a light sporter type gun with no adjustable buttplate and big fat cheekpiece that helps keep it "evened up" with the other guys."

What would be considered a light sporter type gun?

The Marauder is not what I would consider a light (weight) gun. The factory configuration is actually a little heavier than the way I have my Marauder set up with the stock that I made for it. Ergonomically, the factory stock leaves a lot to be desired which is why I built the stock on mine the way I did, plus I can (and will) use it for hunting this way because it mounts so easy. The beauty behind the Marauder is that it is affordable to a lot of folks that want to get into the game (or hunting) for a lesser price.

Am I to understand that in addition to 12X scope and no cheekpiece which would leave a shooter floating behind the scope, that there should also be a physical weight limitation?

Ethically, I feel that I am within the rules of HFT class in that the scope is turned down to 12X, the cheekpiece is bottomed out, and the buttpad is centered and set only for length of pull by the use of spacers that are otherwise non-adjustable. Also, I do not use a bum bag or harness.

I used my Marauder shooting prone when I could, that is without vegetation in the way. Otherwise I shot using shooting stix or standing. In any case, I did not use a harness or (heaven forbid) a shooting jacket. I used the same equipment as if I were out hunting. The shooting stix had the same effect as if I were shooting from an open class sitting position and I experienced the same aiming spot wobble area even when seated on a folding stool. I actually kinda like shooting HFT more than open class due to the simplicity.

Could you clarify what you meant by your statement so that I don't misinterpret your intent?

Thank you and best regards,
Mark
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