FT designed to represent a real hunting scenario???

FT designed to represent a real hunting scenario???

Joined: December 23rd, 2007, 5:14 pm

April 17th, 2011, 3:16 am #1

From the time I started in FT in 08 many of the top guys I`m lucky to help me learn what it takes to win had one thing to say that either confused me or made me laugh. "Field Target was designed to represent hunting"...Guess my hunting technique must have been all wrong all these years. Never been able to coax critters to hold still for a whole 60 seconds while I git into position to shoot. No one to tell me how much magnification was fair. It`s rare that a critter would stick around for a second shot at him. Real critter KZs are mostly larger than FT KZs. Guess I could chose to hunt just like I shoot FT. Seems to continue to be talk about "Hunter Class" rules. Seems the guy`s proposing more rule changes like to use the name of the class as their point in changing some rule they don`t like. Mostly trying to force competitors to use lower end rifles and scopes. Problem is no matter what changes you make to the rules their will still be competitors who will find a better scope than yours or even have a custom gun built to fit the rules while being a match gun under the wood. Mostly it seems so unfair that some find time to practice more than others and put the time and money into their equipment reflecting that extra time. Since I feel the need to win more often than not I have chose to design equipment and shooting style to fit the actual rules, not the rules I wish were actual or the ever mysterious "Spirit of the rules" . This strategy has worked well for me so far...c
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Joined: September 22nd, 2009, 3:12 am

April 17th, 2011, 3:44 am #2

i must say, critters do hold still for a spell. sometimes not but for the most part they do. i have even zipped a few over there head only to find the the squirrels duck for a moment and raise back up and look around. my high day shooting these ground varmint was 176 on open ground over alfalfa.

i nailed 2 crows, one at 35 and the other at 33 yards. they held long enough for me to range and drop em both with my Prod-------------standing. not a twitch.

i think the game represents enough of hunting to call it a simulation. and no, the critters do not care how we line up either for the shot. so i hear ya.

the one thing that i liked about ft when first introduced is the latitude on how a shooter wants to shoot or set up his rig.

i guess there is a fine line, but the line just keeps moving lol.

take care
btw- nice shooting
NorCal Air Gunners
Ronnie Easton
President
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Joined: August 24th, 2003, 10:09 pm

April 17th, 2011, 5:26 am #3

From the time I started in FT in 08 many of the top guys I`m lucky to help me learn what it takes to win had one thing to say that either confused me or made me laugh. "Field Target was designed to represent hunting"...Guess my hunting technique must have been all wrong all these years. Never been able to coax critters to hold still for a whole 60 seconds while I git into position to shoot. No one to tell me how much magnification was fair. It`s rare that a critter would stick around for a second shot at him. Real critter KZs are mostly larger than FT KZs. Guess I could chose to hunt just like I shoot FT. Seems to continue to be talk about "Hunter Class" rules. Seems the guy`s proposing more rule changes like to use the name of the class as their point in changing some rule they don`t like. Mostly trying to force competitors to use lower end rifles and scopes. Problem is no matter what changes you make to the rules their will still be competitors who will find a better scope than yours or even have a custom gun built to fit the rules while being a match gun under the wood. Mostly it seems so unfair that some find time to practice more than others and put the time and money into their equipment reflecting that extra time. Since I feel the need to win more often than not I have chose to design equipment and shooting style to fit the actual rules, not the rules I wish were actual or the ever mysterious "Spirit of the rules" . This strategy has worked well for me so far...c
....that's human nature. We need people to push, to test the waters. That's helps the process along and will solidify the game. I, for one, like both the FT and HFT rules as currently played. I have a rifle set up for HFT and I also have played the FT game with harness, bum bag and I like it because it's easy to shoot.

And you're also correct in that not everyone is going to take the time or has the interest to be at the top of the game. We all know successful hunters or even shooters that shoot some form of FT just for the camaraderie. I'd be willing to bet that most are in that group.

Now having said that, it seems that every provision and change made to the game as been to make FT shooting easier for the competitor. Whether it's harnesses and/or shooting jackets in FT, buckets, sticks and bipods in Hunter, to whatever that prop thing was for offhand shooting last year (anyone remember that?), we don't have a problem accommodating a more comfortable shooting position and the better scores that come along with it. We may even pat ourselves on the back for the accomplishment. And we readily accept the bi-product of the smaller kill zone as the necessary evil of the more stable platform. But has this cost us in the pursuit of marksmanship?

Why not a hard game. Sure not everyone could play. It may be a game for younger shooters but we need to get them started. Right now the limiting factor is the cost to play. This will be even more of an issue with the economy being what it is.

I say change nothing. Let's play the games of FT and HFT as designed. But it's time to give serious thought to something that's different enough to stand on it's own merit while sharing the same course. British Rules HFT with recoiling rifles only does that. Just score faceplate hits as well as knockdowns for those competitors and you can share the same courses. But it needs the recognition from AAFTA and some rules that everyone can reference for legitimacy. I don't understand the resistance.

[url=http://mountcheahaairgunners.shutt ... HARE3SXXXX]http://mountcheahaairgunners.shutterfly ... HARE3SXXXX[/url][/url]
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-bp
Joined: June 5th, 2009, 4:21 pm

April 17th, 2011, 5:28 am #4

From the time I started in FT in 08 many of the top guys I`m lucky to help me learn what it takes to win had one thing to say that either confused me or made me laugh. "Field Target was designed to represent hunting"...Guess my hunting technique must have been all wrong all these years. Never been able to coax critters to hold still for a whole 60 seconds while I git into position to shoot. No one to tell me how much magnification was fair. It`s rare that a critter would stick around for a second shot at him. Real critter KZs are mostly larger than FT KZs. Guess I could chose to hunt just like I shoot FT. Seems to continue to be talk about "Hunter Class" rules. Seems the guy`s proposing more rule changes like to use the name of the class as their point in changing some rule they don`t like. Mostly trying to force competitors to use lower end rifles and scopes. Problem is no matter what changes you make to the rules their will still be competitors who will find a better scope than yours or even have a custom gun built to fit the rules while being a match gun under the wood. Mostly it seems so unfair that some find time to practice more than others and put the time and money into their equipment reflecting that extra time. Since I feel the need to win more often than not I have chose to design equipment and shooting style to fit the actual rules, not the rules I wish were actual or the ever mysterious "Spirit of the rules" . This strategy has worked well for me so far...c
sir--you sound like a man worth listenin' to (NT)
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Joined: October 9th, 2005, 2:33 pm

April 17th, 2011, 10:10 am #5

From the time I started in FT in 08 many of the top guys I`m lucky to help me learn what it takes to win had one thing to say that either confused me or made me laugh. "Field Target was designed to represent hunting"...Guess my hunting technique must have been all wrong all these years. Never been able to coax critters to hold still for a whole 60 seconds while I git into position to shoot. No one to tell me how much magnification was fair. It`s rare that a critter would stick around for a second shot at him. Real critter KZs are mostly larger than FT KZs. Guess I could chose to hunt just like I shoot FT. Seems to continue to be talk about "Hunter Class" rules. Seems the guy`s proposing more rule changes like to use the name of the class as their point in changing some rule they don`t like. Mostly trying to force competitors to use lower end rifles and scopes. Problem is no matter what changes you make to the rules their will still be competitors who will find a better scope than yours or even have a custom gun built to fit the rules while being a match gun under the wood. Mostly it seems so unfair that some find time to practice more than others and put the time and money into their equipment reflecting that extra time. Since I feel the need to win more often than not I have chose to design equipment and shooting style to fit the actual rules, not the rules I wish were actual or the ever mysterious "Spirit of the rules" . This strategy has worked well for me so far...c
"Never been able to coax critters to hold still for a whole 60 seconds while I git into position to shoot."

Animals do set still at the point they are shot in most cases, so not sure why you seem to think they don't. Maybe it's just been some that you've seen. But I don't think most people that squeeze do so on a running target.



" Real critter KZs are mostly larger than FT KZs."

Here I agree 2000%. I've long ago said that HFT players should be allowed faceplate hits since that makes alot is sense in that game. Yet, I think fear of seeing scores from HFT shooters that rival Open or WFT scores keeps that from taking place in my opinion. I also think that HFT competitors ought to be allowed to use terrain features when they are available on a course. But also consider that you'll never see a 6 inch Rhino or Elephant to shoot and kill with a .177 caliber BB GUN Charles, so realism speaks in many forms if we want to abide by that notion.



"I have chose to design equipment and shooting style to fit the actual rules, not the rules I wish were actual or the ever mysterious "Spirit of the rules ."

I think it's very creative how some folks seem to be able to adapt to make equipment that is not addressed by the rules. I think as a match director you have to look at the field of competitors you have in a match class, and ask yourself do you a situation where an advantage over your field is created simply because a shooter has pushed the envelope that skirts into something giving him/her a huge advantage over all the others playing. Also, you have to ask as a MD will or can continuing to allow that advantage to a shooter affect your events in the future. Remember most seem to agree that the sport needs to GROW not SHRINK. So as I see it I believe the MD has the right to call "within the spirit of the rule", which by the way has never been mysterious as you seem to indicate. The MD has and obligation to make sure that there is a fair chance by all to get a first place at his match in my eyesight.

Charles with you for instance. I've looked at the system you have used and while I thought it was brilliance on your part to dream it up. But I have also told you publicly (not behind your back because I've always thought that is how things should be) that I thought it was a portable BR table in a Hunter Field Target event.

It definitely gives you a major advantage over all that play against you as shown by your final score over the last couple of years or so in events. Can you shoot?.. Ya dang skippy you can!! But then I ask this... If Charles were using the same system as the others have (1-2 inch keepads or none at all)would he still have the scores that he post with the BR knee pads? I kinda of think that might not happen.

I think we all need to realize that no one jumps on a flight, comes 2000 miles, books a hotel room, and spends perhaps 1,000.00 dollars for on a weekend to participate in a major FT event, only to find that the man/woman he is squadded with is shooting off what equates to a BR table that moves. So it's easy to complain that the "spirit of the rule" is mystical/problematic, but I do think there are instances where the MD has to have latitude to decide what might be detrimental to his/her event as it relates to those that pay to compete/support that venue.

Luckily for you that I was never an MD at and event you chose to compete in using the Portable Bench Rest system. Honestly, I would I said to you "Charles I just cant allow the 6-8 inch kneepads considering how you're using them to support your body positioning. It's just not fair to the others, and my main concern is that all competitor feel like that have an equal chance to win." I would of even offered you your money back if you felt it was a big problem, but I wouldn't of felt good in sending you out to compete knowing that you'd blow all the other competitors out of the water for first place. This is also something I've said publicaly in conversations when other shooters at events we were both at with other shooters queitly complaining that you had unfair advantage. The concensus from quite a few seemed to be that what you were doing with the pads should of never been allowed at the onset of you first attempting to use them at a sanctioned event. What you do at a local is a free for all if the MD, and the other competitors (because again you have to consider their stake in the match imo) can live with it.

So Charles, if you come dressed to shoot like the other competitors (no fancy I found a loophole in the rules gear) then I guess we are going to see if you just truly are a super human shooter over the rest of the field of HFT competitors. Some think I'm a bit to vocal, but I think it's just that I'm willing to say publicly what others are only willing to think within our circle I guess for fear of being listed as a spoiled sport? Funny part is that it's not my class/division, but I see where other shooters at matches think there is a problem that exist. Yet no one will publicly complain (probably because of the gentlemen's etiquette rule #25-034-011 Revision IV.... He who cries is a sore loser!!...lol).

It can be easily seen that...

<b> THIS!!!
(please note that Charles is NOT leaning against the tree for additonal support)



Has a BIG ADVANTAGE over this...

So there is my 2 cent worth

</b>

It is what it is, because it is!!!
Last edited by gregc107 on April 17th, 2011, 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: October 9th, 2005, 2:33 pm

April 17th, 2011, 10:18 am #6

i must say, critters do hold still for a spell. sometimes not but for the most part they do. i have even zipped a few over there head only to find the the squirrels duck for a moment and raise back up and look around. my high day shooting these ground varmint was 176 on open ground over alfalfa.

i nailed 2 crows, one at 35 and the other at 33 yards. they held long enough for me to range and drop em both with my Prod-------------standing. not a twitch.

i think the game represents enough of hunting to call it a simulation. and no, the critters do not care how we line up either for the shot. so i hear ya.

the one thing that i liked about ft when first introduced is the latitude on how a shooter wants to shoot or set up his rig.

i guess there is a fine line, but the line just keeps moving lol.

take care
btw- nice shooting
"i guess there is a fine line, but the line just keeps moving lol."

I'd like to call it evolving...lol I also belive that if and (I know Charles hate this term) if we try to stay within the spirit of the rules, and not look for huge loop holes (You know like me wearing that big straw hat I like) then we might not get into what might becomes unfair advantages to a group of competitors?

Hope all is well Ron!

It is what it is, because it is!!!
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Joined: October 9th, 2005, 2:33 pm

April 17th, 2011, 10:21 am #7

....that's human nature. We need people to push, to test the waters. That's helps the process along and will solidify the game. I, for one, like both the FT and HFT rules as currently played. I have a rifle set up for HFT and I also have played the FT game with harness, bum bag and I like it because it's easy to shoot.

And you're also correct in that not everyone is going to take the time or has the interest to be at the top of the game. We all know successful hunters or even shooters that shoot some form of FT just for the camaraderie. I'd be willing to bet that most are in that group.

Now having said that, it seems that every provision and change made to the game as been to make FT shooting easier for the competitor. Whether it's harnesses and/or shooting jackets in FT, buckets, sticks and bipods in Hunter, to whatever that prop thing was for offhand shooting last year (anyone remember that?), we don't have a problem accommodating a more comfortable shooting position and the better scores that come along with it. We may even pat ourselves on the back for the accomplishment. And we readily accept the bi-product of the smaller kill zone as the necessary evil of the more stable platform. But has this cost us in the pursuit of marksmanship?

Why not a hard game. Sure not everyone could play. It may be a game for younger shooters but we need to get them started. Right now the limiting factor is the cost to play. This will be even more of an issue with the economy being what it is.

I say change nothing. Let's play the games of FT and HFT as designed. But it's time to give serious thought to something that's different enough to stand on it's own merit while sharing the same course. British Rules HFT with recoiling rifles only does that. Just score faceplate hits as well as knockdowns for those competitors and you can share the same courses. But it needs the recognition from AAFTA and some rules that everyone can reference for legitimacy. I don't understand the resistance.

[url=http://mountcheahaairgunners.shutt ... HARE3SXXXX]http://mountcheahaairgunners.shutterfly ... HARE3SXXXX[/url][/url]
It is what it is, because it is!!!
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Joined: October 27th, 2003, 11:32 pm

April 17th, 2011, 11:23 am #8

"Never been able to coax critters to hold still for a whole 60 seconds while I git into position to shoot."

Animals do set still at the point they are shot in most cases, so not sure why you seem to think they don't. Maybe it's just been some that you've seen. But I don't think most people that squeeze do so on a running target.



" Real critter KZs are mostly larger than FT KZs."

Here I agree 2000%. I've long ago said that HFT players should be allowed faceplate hits since that makes alot is sense in that game. Yet, I think fear of seeing scores from HFT shooters that rival Open or WFT scores keeps that from taking place in my opinion. I also think that HFT competitors ought to be allowed to use terrain features when they are available on a course. But also consider that you'll never see a 6 inch Rhino or Elephant to shoot and kill with a .177 caliber BB GUN Charles, so realism speaks in many forms if we want to abide by that notion.



"I have chose to design equipment and shooting style to fit the actual rules, not the rules I wish were actual or the ever mysterious "Spirit of the rules ."

I think it's very creative how some folks seem to be able to adapt to make equipment that is not addressed by the rules. I think as a match director you have to look at the field of competitors you have in a match class, and ask yourself do you a situation where an advantage over your field is created simply because a shooter has pushed the envelope that skirts into something giving him/her a huge advantage over all the others playing. Also, you have to ask as a MD will or can continuing to allow that advantage to a shooter affect your events in the future. Remember most seem to agree that the sport needs to GROW not SHRINK. So as I see it I believe the MD has the right to call "within the spirit of the rule", which by the way has never been mysterious as you seem to indicate. The MD has and obligation to make sure that there is a fair chance by all to get a first place at his match in my eyesight.

Charles with you for instance. I've looked at the system you have used and while I thought it was brilliance on your part to dream it up. But I have also told you publicly (not behind your back because I've always thought that is how things should be) that I thought it was a portable BR table in a Hunter Field Target event.

It definitely gives you a major advantage over all that play against you as shown by your final score over the last couple of years or so in events. Can you shoot?.. Ya dang skippy you can!! But then I ask this... If Charles were using the same system as the others have (1-2 inch keepads or none at all)would he still have the scores that he post with the BR knee pads? I kinda of think that might not happen.

I think we all need to realize that no one jumps on a flight, comes 2000 miles, books a hotel room, and spends perhaps 1,000.00 dollars for on a weekend to participate in a major FT event, only to find that the man/woman he is squadded with is shooting off what equates to a BR table that moves. So it's easy to complain that the "spirit of the rule" is mystical/problematic, but I do think there are instances where the MD has to have latitude to decide what might be detrimental to his/her event as it relates to those that pay to compete/support that venue.

Luckily for you that I was never an MD at and event you chose to compete in using the Portable Bench Rest system. Honestly, I would I said to you "Charles I just cant allow the 6-8 inch kneepads considering how you're using them to support your body positioning. It's just not fair to the others, and my main concern is that all competitor feel like that have an equal chance to win." I would of even offered you your money back if you felt it was a big problem, but I wouldn't of felt good in sending you out to compete knowing that you'd blow all the other competitors out of the water for first place. This is also something I've said publicaly in conversations when other shooters at events we were both at with other shooters queitly complaining that you had unfair advantage. The concensus from quite a few seemed to be that what you were doing with the pads should of never been allowed at the onset of you first attempting to use them at a sanctioned event. What you do at a local is a free for all if the MD, and the other competitors (because again you have to consider their stake in the match imo) can live with it.

So Charles, if you come dressed to shoot like the other competitors (no fancy I found a loophole in the rules gear) then I guess we are going to see if you just truly are a super human shooter over the rest of the field of HFT competitors. Some think I'm a bit to vocal, but I think it's just that I'm willing to say publicly what others are only willing to think within our circle I guess for fear of being listed as a spoiled sport? Funny part is that it's not my class/division, but I see where other shooters at matches think there is a problem that exist. Yet no one will publicly complain (probably because of the gentlemen's etiquette rule #25-034-011 Revision IV.... He who cries is a sore loser!!...lol).

It can be easily seen that...

<b> THIS!!!
(please note that Charles is NOT leaning against the tree for additonal support)



Has a BIG ADVANTAGE over this...

So there is my 2 cent worth

</b>

It is what it is, because it is!!!



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Joined: October 19th, 2005, 12:48 am

April 17th, 2011, 12:17 pm #9

"Never been able to coax critters to hold still for a whole 60 seconds while I git into position to shoot."

Animals do set still at the point they are shot in most cases, so not sure why you seem to think they don't. Maybe it's just been some that you've seen. But I don't think most people that squeeze do so on a running target.



" Real critter KZs are mostly larger than FT KZs."

Here I agree 2000%. I've long ago said that HFT players should be allowed faceplate hits since that makes alot is sense in that game. Yet, I think fear of seeing scores from HFT shooters that rival Open or WFT scores keeps that from taking place in my opinion. I also think that HFT competitors ought to be allowed to use terrain features when they are available on a course. But also consider that you'll never see a 6 inch Rhino or Elephant to shoot and kill with a .177 caliber BB GUN Charles, so realism speaks in many forms if we want to abide by that notion.



"I have chose to design equipment and shooting style to fit the actual rules, not the rules I wish were actual or the ever mysterious "Spirit of the rules ."

I think it's very creative how some folks seem to be able to adapt to make equipment that is not addressed by the rules. I think as a match director you have to look at the field of competitors you have in a match class, and ask yourself do you a situation where an advantage over your field is created simply because a shooter has pushed the envelope that skirts into something giving him/her a huge advantage over all the others playing. Also, you have to ask as a MD will or can continuing to allow that advantage to a shooter affect your events in the future. Remember most seem to agree that the sport needs to GROW not SHRINK. So as I see it I believe the MD has the right to call "within the spirit of the rule", which by the way has never been mysterious as you seem to indicate. The MD has and obligation to make sure that there is a fair chance by all to get a first place at his match in my eyesight.

Charles with you for instance. I've looked at the system you have used and while I thought it was brilliance on your part to dream it up. But I have also told you publicly (not behind your back because I've always thought that is how things should be) that I thought it was a portable BR table in a Hunter Field Target event.

It definitely gives you a major advantage over all that play against you as shown by your final score over the last couple of years or so in events. Can you shoot?.. Ya dang skippy you can!! But then I ask this... If Charles were using the same system as the others have (1-2 inch keepads or none at all)would he still have the scores that he post with the BR knee pads? I kinda of think that might not happen.

I think we all need to realize that no one jumps on a flight, comes 2000 miles, books a hotel room, and spends perhaps 1,000.00 dollars for on a weekend to participate in a major FT event, only to find that the man/woman he is squadded with is shooting off what equates to a BR table that moves. So it's easy to complain that the "spirit of the rule" is mystical/problematic, but I do think there are instances where the MD has to have latitude to decide what might be detrimental to his/her event as it relates to those that pay to compete/support that venue.

Luckily for you that I was never an MD at and event you chose to compete in using the Portable Bench Rest system. Honestly, I would I said to you "Charles I just cant allow the 6-8 inch kneepads considering how you're using them to support your body positioning. It's just not fair to the others, and my main concern is that all competitor feel like that have an equal chance to win." I would of even offered you your money back if you felt it was a big problem, but I wouldn't of felt good in sending you out to compete knowing that you'd blow all the other competitors out of the water for first place. This is also something I've said publicaly in conversations when other shooters at events we were both at with other shooters queitly complaining that you had unfair advantage. The concensus from quite a few seemed to be that what you were doing with the pads should of never been allowed at the onset of you first attempting to use them at a sanctioned event. What you do at a local is a free for all if the MD, and the other competitors (because again you have to consider their stake in the match imo) can live with it.

So Charles, if you come dressed to shoot like the other competitors (no fancy I found a loophole in the rules gear) then I guess we are going to see if you just truly are a super human shooter over the rest of the field of HFT competitors. Some think I'm a bit to vocal, but I think it's just that I'm willing to say publicly what others are only willing to think within our circle I guess for fear of being listed as a spoiled sport? Funny part is that it's not my class/division, but I see where other shooters at matches think there is a problem that exist. Yet no one will publicly complain (probably because of the gentlemen's etiquette rule #25-034-011 Revision IV.... He who cries is a sore loser!!...lol).

It can be easily seen that...

<b> THIS!!!
(please note that Charles is NOT leaning against the tree for additonal support)



Has a BIG ADVANTAGE over this...

So there is my 2 cent worth

</b>

It is what it is, because it is!!!
In my opinion Charles has the most talent in our hunter devision. He proved that at Baton Rouge even though I didn't feel the course was as hard as last year Nationals (Less Wind Factor) He showed he could shoot with 2" knee pads (Maybe 2 1/4) On the same note Charles has always pushed the envelope. Back in 2008 when I first see Charles at the Kentucky nationals he was driving his mono pod into the ground with a 5 pound sledge hammer which created a very stable platform although he did state he felt like he could find a better platform and obviously he did. I always felt that Charles was such a good shooter he didn't really need the extra advantage but gets away with what the shoot officials allow him too. It seems to me that range officials are only there for safety because they don't seem to know much about the rules or choose not to create a situation. If anyone wants to push the rules or break the rules there is plenty of opportunity to get away with it but maybe not completely get away because there is always this FT forum here that can help assist accountability if someone has the chestnuts to speak up. I do not find this topic enjoyable for I know there is a real human being we are referring to here that has feelings like we all do, the truth can hurt sometimes but if we can learn from it we may end up with a better sport. I also spoke to Charles in person about his six inch knee pads last year. In defense of Charles I find him always willing to be helful and I personally feel he also does what is necessary to stay on top of his game and by that I mean put the time and effort into it to be the best.
Last edited by dayjd on April 17th, 2011, 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: September 22nd, 2009, 3:12 am

April 17th, 2011, 2:29 pm #10

"i guess there is a fine line, but the line just keeps moving lol."

I'd like to call it evolving...lol I also belive that if and (I know Charles hate this term) if we try to stay within the spirit of the rules, and not look for huge loop holes (You know like me wearing that big straw hat I like) then we might not get into what might becomes unfair advantages to a group of competitors?

Hope all is well Ron!

It is what it is, because it is!!!
we are not playing for bars of gold. nt
NorCal Air Gunners
Ronnie Easton
President
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