California -Danger! update. BB gun Felonies- I talked with Mr. Vanci

California -Danger! update. BB gun Felonies- I talked with Mr. Vanci

Joined: April 27th, 2003, 4:22 am

May 5th, 2005, 10:02 pm #1

<P>He was helpful in that he revealed the legislation&nbsp;that his "report " is contorted to justify. SB 532. This makes firing a BB&nbsp; gun that ---"could"--- strike some one the same crime as a&nbsp;shooting a &nbsp;.44 magnum at someone.&nbsp; However , although initially stating he would report any mistakes he finished by stating his full understanding of foot pounds energy, stating his (killer benj legacy) claims were valid and correct . Furthermore, he refuse to simply refer to any standard ballistics reference for firearms and airguns. Synopsis of proposed law&nbsp; note the felony &nbsp;or misdemeanor penalty . Guess it depends on the judges mood or feelings about air guns? Now I would be open to any real need to close a "loop hole" but assault IS assault. Why should a BB gun be worse than a rock? Political correctness I guess.&nbsp; Better yet use a baseball bat, a lot less deadly than a .177 they seem to think.</P>
<P>The real strategy here is to start treating BB guns (let alone pellet guns & note no definitions given) THE SAME AS ANY FIREARM.&nbsp;Then gradually expand in every aspect. .&nbsp;Of course there's a "good"reason. They always will have one. Action recommendatins will be outlined in a post above.</P>
<P>&nbsp; Senate Appropriations Committee Fiscal Summary
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Senator Carole Migden, Chairwoman

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 532 (Torlakson)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hearing Date:&nbsp; 4/18/05&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Amended: 3/31/05
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Consultant: Nora Lynn&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Policy Vote: Public Safety 4-0
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; _________________________________________________________________
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ____
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BILL SUMMARY:&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SB 532 expands existing prohibitions against willful discharges&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of a firearm that could result in an injury or death to include&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; discharges of BB devices. Violations of these provisions are&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; punishable as an alternate felony-misdemeanor ("wobbler").
</P>

NRA life
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Joined: February 11th, 2002, 6:01 pm

May 5th, 2005, 10:08 pm #2

nt
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Joined: March 16th, 2005, 7:11 am

May 5th, 2005, 10:16 pm #3

<P>He was helpful in that he revealed the legislation&nbsp;that his "report " is contorted to justify. SB 532. This makes firing a BB&nbsp; gun that ---"could"--- strike some one the same crime as a&nbsp;shooting a &nbsp;.44 magnum at someone.&nbsp; However , although initially stating he would report any mistakes he finished by stating his full understanding of foot pounds energy, stating his (killer benj legacy) claims were valid and correct . Furthermore, he refuse to simply refer to any standard ballistics reference for firearms and airguns. Synopsis of proposed law&nbsp; note the felony &nbsp;or misdemeanor penalty . Guess it depends on the judges mood or feelings about air guns? Now I would be open to any real need to close a "loop hole" but assault IS assault. Why should a BB gun be worse than a rock? Political correctness I guess.&nbsp; Better yet use a baseball bat, a lot less deadly than a .177 they seem to think.</P>
<P>The real strategy here is to start treating BB guns (let alone pellet guns & note no definitions given) THE SAME AS ANY FIREARM.&nbsp;Then gradually expand in every aspect. .&nbsp;Of course there's a "good"reason. They always will have one. Action recommendatins will be outlined in a post above.</P>
<P>&nbsp; Senate Appropriations Committee Fiscal Summary
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Senator Carole Migden, Chairwoman

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 532 (Torlakson)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hearing Date:&nbsp; 4/18/05&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Amended: 3/31/05
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Consultant: Nora Lynn&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Policy Vote: Public Safety 4-0
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; _________________________________________________________________
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ____
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BILL SUMMARY:&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SB 532 expands existing prohibitions against willful discharges&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of a firearm that could result in an injury or death to include&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; discharges of BB devices. Violations of these provisions are&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; punishable as an alternate felony-misdemeanor ("wobbler").
</P>

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nt

Chris - Filarms
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Joined: February 17th, 2004, 1:35 am

May 6th, 2005, 12:16 am #4

<P>He was helpful in that he revealed the legislation&nbsp;that his "report " is contorted to justify. SB 532. This makes firing a BB&nbsp; gun that ---"could"--- strike some one the same crime as a&nbsp;shooting a &nbsp;.44 magnum at someone.&nbsp; However , although initially stating he would report any mistakes he finished by stating his full understanding of foot pounds energy, stating his (killer benj legacy) claims were valid and correct . Furthermore, he refuse to simply refer to any standard ballistics reference for firearms and airguns. Synopsis of proposed law&nbsp; note the felony &nbsp;or misdemeanor penalty . Guess it depends on the judges mood or feelings about air guns? Now I would be open to any real need to close a "loop hole" but assault IS assault. Why should a BB gun be worse than a rock? Political correctness I guess.&nbsp; Better yet use a baseball bat, a lot less deadly than a .177 they seem to think.</P>
<P>The real strategy here is to start treating BB guns (let alone pellet guns & note no definitions given) THE SAME AS ANY FIREARM.&nbsp;Then gradually expand in every aspect. .&nbsp;Of course there's a "good"reason. They always will have one. Action recommendatins will be outlined in a post above.</P>
<P>&nbsp; Senate Appropriations Committee Fiscal Summary
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Senator Carole Migden, Chairwoman

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 532 (Torlakson)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hearing Date:&nbsp; 4/18/05&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Amended: 3/31/05
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Consultant: Nora Lynn&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Policy Vote: Public Safety 4-0
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; _________________________________________________________________
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ____
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BILL SUMMARY:&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SB 532 expands existing prohibitions against willful discharges&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of a firearm that could result in an injury or death to include&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; discharges of BB devices. Violations of these provisions are&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; punishable as an alternate felony-misdemeanor ("wobbler").
</P>

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nt
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Joined: September 14th, 2004, 8:07 pm

May 6th, 2005, 11:06 am #5

<P>He was helpful in that he revealed the legislation&nbsp;that his "report " is contorted to justify. SB 532. This makes firing a BB&nbsp; gun that ---"could"--- strike some one the same crime as a&nbsp;shooting a &nbsp;.44 magnum at someone.&nbsp; However , although initially stating he would report any mistakes he finished by stating his full understanding of foot pounds energy, stating his (killer benj legacy) claims were valid and correct . Furthermore, he refuse to simply refer to any standard ballistics reference for firearms and airguns. Synopsis of proposed law&nbsp; note the felony &nbsp;or misdemeanor penalty . Guess it depends on the judges mood or feelings about air guns? Now I would be open to any real need to close a "loop hole" but assault IS assault. Why should a BB gun be worse than a rock? Political correctness I guess.&nbsp; Better yet use a baseball bat, a lot less deadly than a .177 they seem to think.</P>
<P>The real strategy here is to start treating BB guns (let alone pellet guns & note no definitions given) THE SAME AS ANY FIREARM.&nbsp;Then gradually expand in every aspect. .&nbsp;Of course there's a "good"reason. They always will have one. Action recommendatins will be outlined in a post above.</P>
<P>&nbsp; Senate Appropriations Committee Fiscal Summary
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Senator Carole Migden, Chairwoman

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 532 (Torlakson)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hearing Date:&nbsp; 4/18/05&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Amended: 3/31/05
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Consultant: Nora Lynn&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Policy Vote: Public Safety 4-0
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; _________________________________________________________________
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ____
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BILL SUMMARY:&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SB 532 expands existing prohibitions against willful discharges&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of a firearm that could result in an injury or death to include&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; discharges of BB devices. Violations of these provisions are&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; punishable as an alternate felony-misdemeanor ("wobbler").
</P>

NRA life
"...note the felony or misdemeanor penalty . Guess it depends on the judges mood or feelings about air guns?"

Nope. It gives the judge the latitude to look at intent. You call it a "wobbler" when in reality it allows the judge to throw the book at an airgunning retard who purposely shot someone with intent to kill them (happened here last fall), while allowing that same judge to issue a warning to a kid who's airgun misfired striking a friend accidentally.

"Now I would be open to any real need to close a "loop hole" but assault IS assault. Why should a BB gun be worse than a rock?"

Excellent point...but isn't this the point you are fighting with your BB Gun versus 44 mag example? ("This makes firing a BB gun...the same crime as a shooting a .44 magnum at someone.")

I am sure that if a case came up involving someone injuring another person by throwing a rock with wanton disregard for the safety of that person, the judge would hand down the punishment warranted.

PB
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Joined: December 31st, 2001, 7:02 am

May 6th, 2005, 9:54 pm #6

I disagree with you classifying air guns as “dangerous weapons”. Are they dangerous? They can be…but so can a screwdriver, baseball bat or a rock. The point is not that an assault is committed; it is that the assault is committed with the BB gun. In your example of a willful assault with a rock, you say the judge would hand down the appropriate sentence. Why does the BB gun need to be treated differently than the rock? This bill would classify the BB gun as a firearm, and as such, carry with it a different set of penalties. Why is that necessary? Why is it different than the screwdriver or rock? Is it because it looks like a gun and not a rock? What is the real motive?

It is the first step in getting air guns classified as firearms. It is not about safety it is about control and regulation. In Kalifornia, all guns are bad…. toy or otherwise. “ Get rid of them all”…”we’ll be safer”…… yeah right!! This legislation is only a stepping-stone for more. The report in question is written to convince the uninformed that air guns are the same as “real” guns and just as dangerous. The state needs to protect the public from these “dangerous weapons”. You sir, are an enabler.

I "willfully" shot at that starling and the pellet "could" have come down and landed on someone. I say landed because the energy level wouldn't really be thought of as a "hit" would it? According to you..it's a 44 magnum.

JMO...mike
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Joined: October 21st, 2000, 9:30 pm

May 6th, 2005, 10:43 pm #7

"...note the felony or misdemeanor penalty . Guess it depends on the judges mood or feelings about air guns?"

Nope. It gives the judge the latitude to look at intent. You call it a "wobbler" when in reality it allows the judge to throw the book at an airgunning retard who purposely shot someone with intent to kill them (happened here last fall), while allowing that same judge to issue a warning to a kid who's airgun misfired striking a friend accidentally.

"Now I would be open to any real need to close a "loop hole" but assault IS assault. Why should a BB gun be worse than a rock?"

Excellent point...but isn't this the point you are fighting with your BB Gun versus 44 mag example? ("This makes firing a BB gun...the same crime as a shooting a .44 magnum at someone.")

I am sure that if a case came up involving someone injuring another person by throwing a rock with wanton disregard for the safety of that person, the judge would hand down the punishment warranted.

PB
this is the same class as brass knuckles, large hunting knives , certain slingshots, police billy clubs, etc. They are not classified as firearms.. which is where California wants to take this. Looks like CA is trying to mimic NJ and MA. RB

http://www.airgunshow.net/Bestunes.htm
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Joined: September 14th, 2004, 8:07 pm

May 8th, 2005, 12:28 am #8

I disagree with you classifying air guns as “dangerous weapons”. Are they dangerous? They can be…but so can a screwdriver, baseball bat or a rock. The point is not that an assault is committed; it is that the assault is committed with the BB gun. In your example of a willful assault with a rock, you say the judge would hand down the appropriate sentence. Why does the BB gun need to be treated differently than the rock? This bill would classify the BB gun as a firearm, and as such, carry with it a different set of penalties. Why is that necessary? Why is it different than the screwdriver or rock? Is it because it looks like a gun and not a rock? What is the real motive?

It is the first step in getting air guns classified as firearms. It is not about safety it is about control and regulation. In Kalifornia, all guns are bad…. toy or otherwise. “ Get rid of them all”…”we’ll be safer”…… yeah right!! This legislation is only a stepping-stone for more. The report in question is written to convince the uninformed that air guns are the same as “real” guns and just as dangerous. The state needs to protect the public from these “dangerous weapons”. You sir, are an enabler.

I "willfully" shot at that starling and the pellet "could" have come down and landed on someone. I say landed because the energy level wouldn't really be thought of as a "hit" would it? According to you..it's a 44 magnum.

JMO...mike
A screwdriver driving a screw is not dangerous.

An airgun discharging a pellet is dangerous.

I DID explain "willful intent". If you pick up your airgun and intentionally shoot someone to harm them, then you should be prosecuted for a felony. If you were at the range and your gun discharged and accidentally hit someone, then you should get the misdemeanor. It is up to the judge to hear the facts and make a decision. It appears the the new law would allow that latitude.

If you shoot in the city limits where it is ILLEGAL and accidentally hit another person, then that is WILLFUL harm because you knowingly broke the law about discharge. A judge could and should hit you with a felony.

PB
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