Benjamin Marauder HDD difficult cocking issues

Benjamin Marauder HDD difficult cocking issues

Joined: April 13th, 2012, 10:27 pm

April 14th, 2012, 10:36 pm #1

I recently purchased a Hammer Debounce Device for my .22 Benjamin Marauder [1 month old rifle from Pyramyd]. I was inspired by Ted's Holdover, well known here and of whom I have found to produce some excellent and informative videos. Installation of the HDD was quick and easy and after installation, I had the same very difficult cocking as some others have reported. This difficultly was not due to dragging or improper installation and though the bolt had a little more friction because of the HDD, the issue was with the last ~3/8" of bolt cocking travel. I wrote Steve from NC directly via email as I was not a member of the Yellow Forum and he mentioned to use the forum for help and feedback...which to me was a little surprising as it was his product. He was helpful in explaining to me how to get signed up and then Steve in CT was very quick and cordial in his response accepting my membership...thank you.

I did try the suggestions noted in the forum but found the issue has more to do with the HDD blocking the hammer from being retracted far enough(by the bolt)for the trigger to latch than being caused by the 1) ball adjustment, 2) trigger assembly being slid forward, or 3) lubrication issues as others have noted in the forum. I have micrometers and calibers and tried the heights from .422"-.448" [it came set at .440" which is in spec] and found from .435" up the pellet clip cannot be loaded because of the bolt pin obstruction; i.e. the HDD not allowing the bolt to retract far enough. At any dimension it was very difficult/nearly impossible to cock and many times I would release the bolt after it mechanically stopped and load a pellet but it would not be cocked so I would try again and load yet another pellet. To be clear, it took so much force I had to put the butt of the gun against my waist and I felt as though I might break the bolt...and knew this would create premature wear of the breech. Pulling back hard and fast worked sometimes but would be very inconvenient and impossible without lifting the gun during every bolt cocking. I tried to slide the trigger assembly back [as some have suggested] but it would not move/moved very little. I figure if the bolt latches the trigger easily and consistently in stock form, the trigger assembly is in the correct position and the HDD is most certainly causing the reduced bolt travel. The movement of the trigger as suggested in the forum is only a patch for the stack up tolerance issue caused by the HDD and of course the slight manufacturing differences of the individual rifles. I understand tweaks require some give and take, but not to this level.

What I have found is that the blocking of the trigger latching is either occurring because of a mechanical stop obstruction between the HDD and the slot in pressure tube...or by the rocking of the HDD created by a couple (force couple)from the bolt latch bushing/screw assembly. As the bolt latch bushing/screw assembly contacts the top side of the HDD, the HDD can lean backward during cocking and this "backlash" becomes lost motion as the ball trails via the contact of hammer tapped hole [hole from the stock screw]. The contact of the ball with the hammer hole provides the link for drawing back the hammer. As many of you know the ball is also used to allow compliance for the HDD to self lock or overrun by tilting and causing a bind between hammer and bolt which therefore saves air from multiple strikes and reduces the noise from excess air and noise from the stock tuning fork sound of the spring oscillating. I can only imagine this will get worse with wear and the only primary fixes I can think of are either machining the pressure tube slot longer or modifying the HDD design. In stock form the socket head cap screw in the trigger (that is replaced by the HDD) serves as both a cocking catch and the physical travel limit for the hammer (and therefore the bolt) against the pressure tube slot and henceforth protects the hammer spring from being over compressed. It is therefore clear that the HDD must be of similar size so as not to limit travel of the hammer during cocking yet still allow the bolt to adequately make contact for cocking.

As several others have also reported this same issue, it is not isolated and though I knew the HDD might increase drag in the bolt action, I was not prepared for a this much difficultly...so after a few hours and trying many different settings I had to give up and remove the HDD for fear of damaging my rifle. I am now back to an easy and smooth cocking stock gun and getting 40-50 strong shots but with the tuning fork noise and more air consumption. I will say that with the HDD installed, I did find that when it did cock and fire after extreme force cocking, it was quieter and conserved noticeably less air so I wish it would worked for me and my rifle as it has for others. Hats off to Steve for this creative solution and hopefully he or someone else can offer a fix that they have used or provide feedback if they gave up. I have some ideas as well including some ideas addressing a design change as well with the hammer striking, but would like to hear some other suggestions or at least know that Steve will refund my money. As a Mechanical Design Engineer for 22 years, I am well aware of the time and effort Steve had to put into this design, build, testing, and installation and it is impressive; I just hope I find a quick and easy solution to get my rifle working with an HDD. Sorry for the long winded post, it is my first and hopefully no more will be this long.

Paul
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Joined: February 18th, 2011, 5:44 pm

April 14th, 2012, 11:11 pm #2

i had similar problem with hdd for my marauder pistol,would barely pull rearward enough to cock,and probe would protrude into magazine ,making mag extraction difficult,finally gave up and removed it,some tolerences in trigger or bolt maybe,i do'nt know, maybe i'll work on it again later and try to figure it out,wish you luck,have one in my 22 and 25 marauder rifles and they work fine.
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Joined: July 26th, 2011, 2:16 am

April 14th, 2012, 11:31 pm #3

I dont know if Steve would recommend this but have you thought of filing a small amount of material off the back and the rear corners of the HDD? It just sounds like the Groove in the air tube might be out of spec a little and the HDD is hitting it just before you are getting it to cock. I though I read another post of someone modifying their HDD like this.
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Joined: September 25th, 2006, 2:19 pm

April 15th, 2012, 1:00 am #4

I recently purchased a Hammer Debounce Device for my .22 Benjamin Marauder [1 month old rifle from Pyramyd]. I was inspired by Ted's Holdover, well known here and of whom I have found to produce some excellent and informative videos. Installation of the HDD was quick and easy and after installation, I had the same very difficult cocking as some others have reported. This difficultly was not due to dragging or improper installation and though the bolt had a little more friction because of the HDD, the issue was with the last ~3/8" of bolt cocking travel. I wrote Steve from NC directly via email as I was not a member of the Yellow Forum and he mentioned to use the forum for help and feedback...which to me was a little surprising as it was his product. He was helpful in explaining to me how to get signed up and then Steve in CT was very quick and cordial in his response accepting my membership...thank you.

I did try the suggestions noted in the forum but found the issue has more to do with the HDD blocking the hammer from being retracted far enough(by the bolt)for the trigger to latch than being caused by the 1) ball adjustment, 2) trigger assembly being slid forward, or 3) lubrication issues as others have noted in the forum. I have micrometers and calibers and tried the heights from .422"-.448" [it came set at .440" which is in spec] and found from .435" up the pellet clip cannot be loaded because of the bolt pin obstruction; i.e. the HDD not allowing the bolt to retract far enough. At any dimension it was very difficult/nearly impossible to cock and many times I would release the bolt after it mechanically stopped and load a pellet but it would not be cocked so I would try again and load yet another pellet. To be clear, it took so much force I had to put the butt of the gun against my waist and I felt as though I might break the bolt...and knew this would create premature wear of the breech. Pulling back hard and fast worked sometimes but would be very inconvenient and impossible without lifting the gun during every bolt cocking. I tried to slide the trigger assembly back [as some have suggested] but it would not move/moved very little. I figure if the bolt latches the trigger easily and consistently in stock form, the trigger assembly is in the correct position and the HDD is most certainly causing the reduced bolt travel. The movement of the trigger as suggested in the forum is only a patch for the stack up tolerance issue caused by the HDD and of course the slight manufacturing differences of the individual rifles. I understand tweaks require some give and take, but not to this level.

What I have found is that the blocking of the trigger latching is either occurring because of a mechanical stop obstruction between the HDD and the slot in pressure tube...or by the rocking of the HDD created by a couple (force couple)from the bolt latch bushing/screw assembly. As the bolt latch bushing/screw assembly contacts the top side of the HDD, the HDD can lean backward during cocking and this "backlash" becomes lost motion as the ball trails via the contact of hammer tapped hole [hole from the stock screw]. The contact of the ball with the hammer hole provides the link for drawing back the hammer. As many of you know the ball is also used to allow compliance for the HDD to self lock or overrun by tilting and causing a bind between hammer and bolt which therefore saves air from multiple strikes and reduces the noise from excess air and noise from the stock tuning fork sound of the spring oscillating. I can only imagine this will get worse with wear and the only primary fixes I can think of are either machining the pressure tube slot longer or modifying the HDD design. In stock form the socket head cap screw in the trigger (that is replaced by the HDD) serves as both a cocking catch and the physical travel limit for the hammer (and therefore the bolt) against the pressure tube slot and henceforth protects the hammer spring from being over compressed. It is therefore clear that the HDD must be of similar size so as not to limit travel of the hammer during cocking yet still allow the bolt to adequately make contact for cocking.

As several others have also reported this same issue, it is not isolated and though I knew the HDD might increase drag in the bolt action, I was not prepared for a this much difficultly...so after a few hours and trying many different settings I had to give up and remove the HDD for fear of damaging my rifle. I am now back to an easy and smooth cocking stock gun and getting 40-50 strong shots but with the tuning fork noise and more air consumption. I will say that with the HDD installed, I did find that when it did cock and fire after extreme force cocking, it was quieter and conserved noticeably less air so I wish it would worked for me and my rifle as it has for others. Hats off to Steve for this creative solution and hopefully he or someone else can offer a fix that they have used or provide feedback if they gave up. I have some ideas as well including some ideas addressing a design change as well with the hammer striking, but would like to hear some other suggestions or at least know that Steve will refund my money. As a Mechanical Design Engineer for 22 years, I am well aware of the time and effort Steve had to put into this design, build, testing, and installation and it is impressive; I just hope I find a quick and easy solution to get my rifle working with an HDD. Sorry for the long winded post, it is my first and hopefully no more will be this long.

Paul
One is the working end of the sprag. The other is a "potential " cam which is the ball and its corresponding shallow seat. That is to say that if the HDD was set up and installed where the HDD had to much play or wiggle room. the ball could tend to raise from its seat and therefore shift the tangency relation of the ball to the perifery of the seat and actually cause very high resistance, cam action, to moving the hammer rearward.

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Joined: April 13th, 2012, 10:27 pm

April 15th, 2012, 1:20 am #5

I certainly considered this factor as well and is the main reason why I also set a max stack height of .448" wherein I could just barely get the bolt over the HDD. In this tight setup there would be minimum to no play to allow cam action tilt and therefore no pinch induced drag causing the bolt bind you are speaking about. In this setup there was more drag because of the tight stack up height and still the cocking was tight at the end and very difficult. It is a good thought and something others should consider as the HDD drags as it will be a possible cause of difficult cocking at wear increases. I also went to the minimum dimension of .422" and did not experience the binding of the bolt as you suggest but still saw difficult cocking at the end of bolt stroke. The bolt did however rest further back allowing the pellet clip to be installed without obstruction in the breech channel.

For a test I also intend to lock down the gun and put a dial indicator on the bolt and see how far the stock setup allows the bolt to travel after the latch engages. This will not be exact but it would be good to know how much the HDD is missing the latch.
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Joined: April 13th, 2012, 10:27 pm

April 15th, 2012, 1:24 am #6

I dont know if Steve would recommend this but have you thought of filing a small amount of material off the back and the rear corners of the HDD? It just sounds like the Groove in the air tube might be out of spec a little and the HDD is hitting it just before you are getting it to cock. I though I read another post of someone modifying their HDD like this.
Yes this is something I considered, though I did not see the article about this modification...do you have a link? I am not sure if you know of Dykem Blue...but I had planned to use this to find the points that are hitting on the HDD but I just did not have the time and I could see on the gun an area that was rubbing off the black. Thanks
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Joined: July 26th, 2011, 2:16 am

April 15th, 2012, 1:33 am #7

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Joined: March 25th, 2011, 2:35 am

April 15th, 2012, 1:39 am #8

I recently purchased a Hammer Debounce Device for my .22 Benjamin Marauder [1 month old rifle from Pyramyd]. I was inspired by Ted's Holdover, well known here and of whom I have found to produce some excellent and informative videos. Installation of the HDD was quick and easy and after installation, I had the same very difficult cocking as some others have reported. This difficultly was not due to dragging or improper installation and though the bolt had a little more friction because of the HDD, the issue was with the last ~3/8" of bolt cocking travel. I wrote Steve from NC directly via email as I was not a member of the Yellow Forum and he mentioned to use the forum for help and feedback...which to me was a little surprising as it was his product. He was helpful in explaining to me how to get signed up and then Steve in CT was very quick and cordial in his response accepting my membership...thank you.

I did try the suggestions noted in the forum but found the issue has more to do with the HDD blocking the hammer from being retracted far enough(by the bolt)for the trigger to latch than being caused by the 1) ball adjustment, 2) trigger assembly being slid forward, or 3) lubrication issues as others have noted in the forum. I have micrometers and calibers and tried the heights from .422"-.448" [it came set at .440" which is in spec] and found from .435" up the pellet clip cannot be loaded because of the bolt pin obstruction; i.e. the HDD not allowing the bolt to retract far enough. At any dimension it was very difficult/nearly impossible to cock and many times I would release the bolt after it mechanically stopped and load a pellet but it would not be cocked so I would try again and load yet another pellet. To be clear, it took so much force I had to put the butt of the gun against my waist and I felt as though I might break the bolt...and knew this would create premature wear of the breech. Pulling back hard and fast worked sometimes but would be very inconvenient and impossible without lifting the gun during every bolt cocking. I tried to slide the trigger assembly back [as some have suggested] but it would not move/moved very little. I figure if the bolt latches the trigger easily and consistently in stock form, the trigger assembly is in the correct position and the HDD is most certainly causing the reduced bolt travel. The movement of the trigger as suggested in the forum is only a patch for the stack up tolerance issue caused by the HDD and of course the slight manufacturing differences of the individual rifles. I understand tweaks require some give and take, but not to this level.

What I have found is that the blocking of the trigger latching is either occurring because of a mechanical stop obstruction between the HDD and the slot in pressure tube...or by the rocking of the HDD created by a couple (force couple)from the bolt latch bushing/screw assembly. As the bolt latch bushing/screw assembly contacts the top side of the HDD, the HDD can lean backward during cocking and this "backlash" becomes lost motion as the ball trails via the contact of hammer tapped hole [hole from the stock screw]. The contact of the ball with the hammer hole provides the link for drawing back the hammer. As many of you know the ball is also used to allow compliance for the HDD to self lock or overrun by tilting and causing a bind between hammer and bolt which therefore saves air from multiple strikes and reduces the noise from excess air and noise from the stock tuning fork sound of the spring oscillating. I can only imagine this will get worse with wear and the only primary fixes I can think of are either machining the pressure tube slot longer or modifying the HDD design. In stock form the socket head cap screw in the trigger (that is replaced by the HDD) serves as both a cocking catch and the physical travel limit for the hammer (and therefore the bolt) against the pressure tube slot and henceforth protects the hammer spring from being over compressed. It is therefore clear that the HDD must be of similar size so as not to limit travel of the hammer during cocking yet still allow the bolt to adequately make contact for cocking.

As several others have also reported this same issue, it is not isolated and though I knew the HDD might increase drag in the bolt action, I was not prepared for a this much difficultly...so after a few hours and trying many different settings I had to give up and remove the HDD for fear of damaging my rifle. I am now back to an easy and smooth cocking stock gun and getting 40-50 strong shots but with the tuning fork noise and more air consumption. I will say that with the HDD installed, I did find that when it did cock and fire after extreme force cocking, it was quieter and conserved noticeably less air so I wish it would worked for me and my rifle as it has for others. Hats off to Steve for this creative solution and hopefully he or someone else can offer a fix that they have used or provide feedback if they gave up. I have some ideas as well including some ideas addressing a design change as well with the hammer striking, but would like to hear some other suggestions or at least know that Steve will refund my money. As a Mechanical Design Engineer for 22 years, I am well aware of the time and effort Steve had to put into this design, build, testing, and installation and it is impressive; I just hope I find a quick and easy solution to get my rifle working with an HDD. Sorry for the long winded post, it is my first and hopefully no more will be this long.

Paul
tune on your Mrod and you will not need the HDD...
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Joined: March 25th, 2011, 2:35 am

April 15th, 2012, 1:50 am #9

I recently purchased a Hammer Debounce Device for my .22 Benjamin Marauder [1 month old rifle from Pyramyd]. I was inspired by Ted's Holdover, well known here and of whom I have found to produce some excellent and informative videos. Installation of the HDD was quick and easy and after installation, I had the same very difficult cocking as some others have reported. This difficultly was not due to dragging or improper installation and though the bolt had a little more friction because of the HDD, the issue was with the last ~3/8" of bolt cocking travel. I wrote Steve from NC directly via email as I was not a member of the Yellow Forum and he mentioned to use the forum for help and feedback...which to me was a little surprising as it was his product. He was helpful in explaining to me how to get signed up and then Steve in CT was very quick and cordial in his response accepting my membership...thank you.

I did try the suggestions noted in the forum but found the issue has more to do with the HDD blocking the hammer from being retracted far enough(by the bolt)for the trigger to latch than being caused by the 1) ball adjustment, 2) trigger assembly being slid forward, or 3) lubrication issues as others have noted in the forum. I have micrometers and calibers and tried the heights from .422"-.448" [it came set at .440" which is in spec] and found from .435" up the pellet clip cannot be loaded because of the bolt pin obstruction; i.e. the HDD not allowing the bolt to retract far enough. At any dimension it was very difficult/nearly impossible to cock and many times I would release the bolt after it mechanically stopped and load a pellet but it would not be cocked so I would try again and load yet another pellet. To be clear, it took so much force I had to put the butt of the gun against my waist and I felt as though I might break the bolt...and knew this would create premature wear of the breech. Pulling back hard and fast worked sometimes but would be very inconvenient and impossible without lifting the gun during every bolt cocking. I tried to slide the trigger assembly back [as some have suggested] but it would not move/moved very little. I figure if the bolt latches the trigger easily and consistently in stock form, the trigger assembly is in the correct position and the HDD is most certainly causing the reduced bolt travel. The movement of the trigger as suggested in the forum is only a patch for the stack up tolerance issue caused by the HDD and of course the slight manufacturing differences of the individual rifles. I understand tweaks require some give and take, but not to this level.

What I have found is that the blocking of the trigger latching is either occurring because of a mechanical stop obstruction between the HDD and the slot in pressure tube...or by the rocking of the HDD created by a couple (force couple)from the bolt latch bushing/screw assembly. As the bolt latch bushing/screw assembly contacts the top side of the HDD, the HDD can lean backward during cocking and this "backlash" becomes lost motion as the ball trails via the contact of hammer tapped hole [hole from the stock screw]. The contact of the ball with the hammer hole provides the link for drawing back the hammer. As many of you know the ball is also used to allow compliance for the HDD to self lock or overrun by tilting and causing a bind between hammer and bolt which therefore saves air from multiple strikes and reduces the noise from excess air and noise from the stock tuning fork sound of the spring oscillating. I can only imagine this will get worse with wear and the only primary fixes I can think of are either machining the pressure tube slot longer or modifying the HDD design. In stock form the socket head cap screw in the trigger (that is replaced by the HDD) serves as both a cocking catch and the physical travel limit for the hammer (and therefore the bolt) against the pressure tube slot and henceforth protects the hammer spring from being over compressed. It is therefore clear that the HDD must be of similar size so as not to limit travel of the hammer during cocking yet still allow the bolt to adequately make contact for cocking.

As several others have also reported this same issue, it is not isolated and though I knew the HDD might increase drag in the bolt action, I was not prepared for a this much difficultly...so after a few hours and trying many different settings I had to give up and remove the HDD for fear of damaging my rifle. I am now back to an easy and smooth cocking stock gun and getting 40-50 strong shots but with the tuning fork noise and more air consumption. I will say that with the HDD installed, I did find that when it did cock and fire after extreme force cocking, it was quieter and conserved noticeably less air so I wish it would worked for me and my rifle as it has for others. Hats off to Steve for this creative solution and hopefully he or someone else can offer a fix that they have used or provide feedback if they gave up. I have some ideas as well including some ideas addressing a design change as well with the hammer striking, but would like to hear some other suggestions or at least know that Steve will refund my money. As a Mechanical Design Engineer for 22 years, I am well aware of the time and effort Steve had to put into this design, build, testing, and installation and it is impressive; I just hope I find a quick and easy solution to get my rifle working with an HDD. Sorry for the long winded post, it is my first and hopefully no more will be this long.

Paul
of the HDD...seems more have issues just trying to get it to work..

But,...it does do some of the things stated,...just not all...
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Joined: September 25th, 2006, 2:19 pm

April 15th, 2012, 1:57 am #10

I certainly considered this factor as well and is the main reason why I also set a max stack height of .448" wherein I could just barely get the bolt over the HDD. In this tight setup there would be minimum to no play to allow cam action tilt and therefore no pinch induced drag causing the bolt bind you are speaking about. In this setup there was more drag because of the tight stack up height and still the cocking was tight at the end and very difficult. It is a good thought and something others should consider as the HDD drags as it will be a possible cause of difficult cocking at wear increases. I also went to the minimum dimension of .422" and did not experience the binding of the bolt as you suggest but still saw difficult cocking at the end of bolt stroke. The bolt did however rest further back allowing the pellet clip to be installed without obstruction in the breech channel.

For a test I also intend to lock down the gun and put a dial indicator on the bolt and see how far the stock setup allows the bolt to travel after the latch engages. This will not be exact but it would be good to know how much the HDD is missing the latch.
and have it covered on your end.

My only other though is that the cocking effort would naturally increase toward the end as spring tension increases if the ball were rising from the seat too much.

Maybe not relevent, but what is the condition of the tapped hole where the ball seats?
In the manufacturing process the tap can enter the hole arbitrarily which might make the actual "ball seat" position vary from part to part. Or is the tapped hole finished to where the ball will not rest an ANY portion of the cut or formed thread?
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