A bit confused on lubrication...

A bit confused on lubrication...

Joined: September 4th, 2006, 7:00 pm

September 12th, 2006, 5:34 pm #1

I have a few ideas/facts/opinions floating around in my head from various sources and I'd love for some people to sort them out for me... Thanks in advance...

So... One could deduct that lubricating a pellet and/or barrel would cause a pellet to go faster... This would make a Raptor PBA more accurate (information I read on pyramydair.com's blog saying that if you could get a pellet to go significantly faster than sound, it would gain some accuracy) and also make it so that an S1000-type could shoot something like a Kodiak at 900-1000fps perhaps?

I realize that it is generally regarded as a bad idea to lube anything forward of the spring in a springer due to dieseling/detonation...

I have read that dieseling is not all that bad and that all high-powered air rifles do it... it's detonation that is bad for the gun...

I know they sell "non-flammable" lubrications for guns and I assume these would be the same as "low-flash-point" lubrications... what are these and are they ok to use in the barrel/on the pellet?

I have heard it is not a good idea to oil seals (such as breech seals) due to 1.) some corrosive property that would destroy the seals and 2.) dieseling/detonation issues

Can anyone sort some of these things out for me?

Thanks



GAMO Shadow Sport Combo w/ BSA 3-9x40 Scope & Buck Hunter

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Joined: October 10th, 2003, 5:24 am

September 12th, 2006, 5:48 pm #2

It's something that you get in a new gun that hasn't been degreased. The vapors are compressed until the heat hits the flash point - then detonation occurs. That's why some new guns do +1000 fps for a while and then settle down to below that. A steady diet of dieseling will eventually burn out or bust something.

Everyone seems to argue against lubing pellets. Remember, pure lead has a very high lubricity in the first place. You won't be gaining much by usiing something like teflon or similar coatings in the bore. Plus you run the risk of it migrating into you barrel and piston seals where it isn't supposed to be.

If you have a real need for speed, best to buy the fastest gun you can tolerate, cash-wise and twang-wise. I know guys like to "improve" things, but sometimes it's best to buy the Corvette rather than try to hop up the Ford. Also, be sure it's a gun you can shoot well. Many magnums are hard to get used to. (Same is true in firearms.) Yep, speed kills, but only insomuch as you can put the pellet on target.

What, me worry???
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Joined: October 21st, 2001, 3:36 am

September 12th, 2006, 6:02 pm #3

I have a few ideas/facts/opinions floating around in my head from various sources and I'd love for some people to sort them out for me... Thanks in advance...

So... One could deduct that lubricating a pellet and/or barrel would cause a pellet to go faster... This would make a Raptor PBA more accurate (information I read on pyramydair.com's blog saying that if you could get a pellet to go significantly faster than sound, it would gain some accuracy) and also make it so that an S1000-type could shoot something like a Kodiak at 900-1000fps perhaps?

I realize that it is generally regarded as a bad idea to lube anything forward of the spring in a springer due to dieseling/detonation...

I have read that dieseling is not all that bad and that all high-powered air rifles do it... it's detonation that is bad for the gun...

I know they sell "non-flammable" lubrications for guns and I assume these would be the same as "low-flash-point" lubrications... what are these and are they ok to use in the barrel/on the pellet?

I have heard it is not a good idea to oil seals (such as breech seals) due to 1.) some corrosive property that would destroy the seals and 2.) dieseling/detonation issues

Can anyone sort some of these things out for me?

Thanks



GAMO Shadow Sport Combo w/ BSA 3-9x40 Scope & Buck Hunter

pellet lubrication is used to help improve accuracy and mostly to prevent barrel fouling to reduce cleaning and the accuracy problems a dirty barrel causes.

Pellet lubrication has been discussed EXTENSIVELY on the main forum, a search would answer any question you could possibly have.

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Joined: March 19th, 2006, 8:49 am

September 12th, 2006, 8:29 pm #4

I have a few ideas/facts/opinions floating around in my head from various sources and I'd love for some people to sort them out for me... Thanks in advance...

So... One could deduct that lubricating a pellet and/or barrel would cause a pellet to go faster... This would make a Raptor PBA more accurate (information I read on pyramydair.com's blog saying that if you could get a pellet to go significantly faster than sound, it would gain some accuracy) and also make it so that an S1000-type could shoot something like a Kodiak at 900-1000fps perhaps?

I realize that it is generally regarded as a bad idea to lube anything forward of the spring in a springer due to dieseling/detonation...

I have read that dieseling is not all that bad and that all high-powered air rifles do it... it's detonation that is bad for the gun...

I know they sell "non-flammable" lubrications for guns and I assume these would be the same as "low-flash-point" lubrications... what are these and are they ok to use in the barrel/on the pellet?

I have heard it is not a good idea to oil seals (such as breech seals) due to 1.) some corrosive property that would destroy the seals and 2.) dieseling/detonation issues

Can anyone sort some of these things out for me?

Thanks



GAMO Shadow Sport Combo w/ BSA 3-9x40 Scope & Buck Hunter

I did some testing with ludes on an old gun and I added one small drop of Prolong (it has Petroleum in it) to 5 pellets and the fps did go up with NO Dieseling/detonation. Also tried chain wax (no Petroleum)the fps was around the same as the oil. The NO dieseling was due to the fact the gun just is not that fast. I tried 1 lubed pellet in my MA2240 (a 600+fps gun) an yes, it smoked and smelled (dieseling) I was too chicken to try the wax. You will not gain much in fps and the accuracy may fall off (it did on my Norica). Check out the numders below and yes do a search on the main.


Norica Mod. 56

Beeman WC H&N Match (8.09gr)

1-462.3 fps
2-455.9 fps
3-459.6 fps
4-470.5 fps
5-464.7 fps
Av= 462.8 fps

Crosman WC Premium Grade (7.9gr)

1-465.8 fps
2-469.8 fps
3-465.7 fps
4-470.0 fps
5-464.2 fps
Av=467.1 fps

Beeman Silver Jet Magnum (11.50gr)

1-475.3 fps
2-472.5 fps
3-459.6 fps
4-455.6 fps
5-456.3 fps
Av= 463.9 fps

Beeman WC H&N Match (8.09gr) (with oil)

1-465.3 fps
2-471.3 fps
3-473.2 fps
4-468.7 fps
5-464.2 fps
Av=468.5 fps

Beeman Silver jet Magnum (11.50gr) (with oil)

1-469.3 fps
2-478.6 fps
3-472.5 fps
4-467.3 fps
5-472.8 fps
Av=472.1 fps

Gamo Raptor PBA (5.00gr) Scale weight

1-497.5fps
2-488.1fps
3-519.9fps
4-512.1fps
5-521.4fps
Av= 507.8fps
Last edited by photo22 on September 13th, 2006, 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 11th, 2006, 2:45 pm

September 12th, 2006, 10:13 pm #5

It's something that you get in a new gun that hasn't been degreased. The vapors are compressed until the heat hits the flash point - then detonation occurs. That's why some new guns do +1000 fps for a while and then settle down to below that. A steady diet of dieseling will eventually burn out or bust something.

Everyone seems to argue against lubing pellets. Remember, pure lead has a very high lubricity in the first place. You won't be gaining much by usiing something like teflon or similar coatings in the bore. Plus you run the risk of it migrating into you barrel and piston seals where it isn't supposed to be.

If you have a real need for speed, best to buy the fastest gun you can tolerate, cash-wise and twang-wise. I know guys like to "improve" things, but sometimes it's best to buy the Corvette rather than try to hop up the Ford. Also, be sure it's a gun you can shoot well. Many magnums are hard to get used to. (Same is true in firearms.) Yep, speed kills, but only insomuch as you can put the pellet on target.

What, me worry???
Dieseling is NOT detonation

It's auto-ignition.
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Joined: October 10th, 2003, 5:24 am

September 13th, 2006, 2:00 am #6

Anyway, I kind of thought that's how a diesel engine works. Compress/ignite/detonate the air-fuel mix. Isn't that what's happening in the spring chamber? Vapors in the chamber are suddenly compressed until some sort of explosion occurs? Not clear on how putting lube in a barrel causes the same effect behind the pellet. Aren't you just pushing the lube out? At most, isn't the lube being burned off via pellet friction? To generate more speed, you need expanding gasses to boost the compression produced by the piston, so the dieseling must occur behind, right?

What, me worry???
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Joined: October 8th, 2003, 12:41 pm

September 13th, 2006, 11:30 am #7

...as opposed to "spark ignition".

Detonation has to do with the rate of burning, and happens after the flame front is initiated. Detonation means the the fuel mix is consumed at a much faster rate and a more unpredictable manner.

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Joined: October 8th, 2003, 12:41 pm

September 13th, 2006, 11:31 am #8

I have a few ideas/facts/opinions floating around in my head from various sources and I'd love for some people to sort them out for me... Thanks in advance...

So... One could deduct that lubricating a pellet and/or barrel would cause a pellet to go faster... This would make a Raptor PBA more accurate (information I read on pyramydair.com's blog saying that if you could get a pellet to go significantly faster than sound, it would gain some accuracy) and also make it so that an S1000-type could shoot something like a Kodiak at 900-1000fps perhaps?

I realize that it is generally regarded as a bad idea to lube anything forward of the spring in a springer due to dieseling/detonation...

I have read that dieseling is not all that bad and that all high-powered air rifles do it... it's detonation that is bad for the gun...

I know they sell "non-flammable" lubrications for guns and I assume these would be the same as "low-flash-point" lubrications... what are these and are they ok to use in the barrel/on the pellet?

I have heard it is not a good idea to oil seals (such as breech seals) due to 1.) some corrosive property that would destroy the seals and 2.) dieseling/detonation issues

Can anyone sort some of these things out for me?

Thanks



GAMO Shadow Sport Combo w/ BSA 3-9x40 Scope & Buck Hunter

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Joined: July 11th, 2006, 2:45 pm

September 13th, 2006, 7:50 pm #9

...as opposed to "spark ignition".

Detonation has to do with the rate of burning, and happens after the flame front is initiated. Detonation means the the fuel mix is consumed at a much faster rate and a more unpredictable manner.
Things burn like a candle, smoothly making hot gasses. It's only a bit faster in confined propellant mixtures of air and a fuel. This is combustion, and if it is self-ignited by the temp of the compressed gas bringing it to its ignition temp, it's called "Dieseling". These typically proceed at a few to several hundred feet a second, if confined, somewhat faster.

At this point, under certain conditions, things can start to "burn" in a different way.

In detonation, the "burning" proceeds on the soundwave from the "burning", at the speed of sound in that particular material. This is what a high explosive does when it detonates, or gasoline when it "knocks".

Depending on the material, this can be many thousands of feet/sec, reaching enormous temperatures and pressures along the wavefront. The material can completely turn to gas in a fraction of a thousandth of a second. Hence the loud, sharp bang.

This is why it can punch a hole in, or simply destroy, just about anything.

You would not want a detonation in your airgun, for obvious reasons.

It probably doesn't matter here, but for accuracy, there it is.
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Joined: October 10th, 2003, 5:24 am

September 14th, 2006, 3:36 am #10

Maybe I had the right idea but the wrong symantics. Anyway, detonations aside, I would guess that diesel combusting will eventually com-bust something in an airgun. Maybe melt synthetic seals to boot?

What, me worry???
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