Now HERE is an absolutely insane idea!

Now HERE is an absolutely insane idea!

Mac
Mac

February 27th, 2005, 5:11 am #1

There has been a lot of talk that, since it's been made clear Fiat can not "afford" to develop a mid-engine platform for this car "from scratch", they should consider SOME OTHER existing mid-engine platform out there in the world.

Just for fun, I sat back and imagined:

"Hmm. IF Fiat were going to go "buy" outright some existing mid-engine platform from ANY company in order to produce the X1/99 as mid-engine, what platform would / could they go for?"
Discussions here have often mentioned the Vauxhall VX220 because Vauxhall is owned by GM. The trouble is that the VX220 platform is not available to Fiat through their now dissolved partnership with GM as far as I've ever heard, so if they could get that platform, they would probably have to make a totally new and separate deal with GM in order to do it.

In fact, if they were going to do that, they might even just go straight to Lotus for the Elise platform, same thing, and there may be less hesitance on the part of Lotus, since who knows how GM would feel about getting involved in anything new with Fiat after the 2 Billion Dollar "put" payoff...

THEN, I had a truly wild and crazy idea!! I am virtually positive that this would NEVER happen, but, since we are just daydreaming here, I then thought, "well, Fiat owns majority stock in Ferrari, Ferrari has lots of mid-engine platforms, and they're Italian, and they have lots of mid-engine platforms, and Fiat owns majority stock..." (is that circular reasoning? )

So how about Fiat getting the least expensive mid-engine platform Ferrari has, shorten it a lot, narrow it a little, Fiat engine, body it up and WHAM-O, our new X

I know, no way that would EVER happen, EVER, but it REALLY WOULD be a 'baby Ferrari' then!

Just daydreaming... -Mac
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Joined: January 28th, 2003, 12:29 pm

February 27th, 2005, 7:11 am #2



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Joined: March 19th, 2004, 6:23 pm

February 27th, 2005, 2:55 pm #3

There has been a lot of talk that, since it's been made clear Fiat can not "afford" to develop a mid-engine platform for this car "from scratch", they should consider SOME OTHER existing mid-engine platform out there in the world.

Just for fun, I sat back and imagined:

"Hmm. IF Fiat were going to go "buy" outright some existing mid-engine platform from ANY company in order to produce the X1/99 as mid-engine, what platform would / could they go for?"
Discussions here have often mentioned the Vauxhall VX220 because Vauxhall is owned by GM. The trouble is that the VX220 platform is not available to Fiat through their now dissolved partnership with GM as far as I've ever heard, so if they could get that platform, they would probably have to make a totally new and separate deal with GM in order to do it.

In fact, if they were going to do that, they might even just go straight to Lotus for the Elise platform, same thing, and there may be less hesitance on the part of Lotus, since who knows how GM would feel about getting involved in anything new with Fiat after the 2 Billion Dollar "put" payoff...

THEN, I had a truly wild and crazy idea!! I am virtually positive that this would NEVER happen, but, since we are just daydreaming here, I then thought, "well, Fiat owns majority stock in Ferrari, Ferrari has lots of mid-engine platforms, and they're Italian, and they have lots of mid-engine platforms, and Fiat owns majority stock..." (is that circular reasoning? )

So how about Fiat getting the least expensive mid-engine platform Ferrari has, shorten it a lot, narrow it a little, Fiat engine, body it up and WHAM-O, our new X

I know, no way that would EVER happen, EVER, but it REALLY WOULD be a 'baby Ferrari' then!

Just daydreaming... -Mac
Well, Alfa is no longer going to be building the V-6, instead, they will be buying GM V6s, and Fiat is going to be selling diesel technology to GM.

So, it is plausable for Fiat to get the Lotus platform, either from GM or Lotus. Fiat just has to make it themselves, and it would have to be out of steel.

There isn't a transverse Ferrari platform in current production, and then developing a gear box to fit a North/South layout would be cost prohibitive. Nice idea though...

hehe, oh, and the 308GT4 would be incredibly expensive to build today, tubular chassis?!?! wow..

But the Lotus idea isn't too far off, platform sharing is the future .... cost savings thing.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/myronx19
Myron Samila
Toronto, Canada
1978 Fiat X1/9 1500cc/4spd/daily driver
1982 Fiat X1/9 1500cc FI/Faza 35/75/weekender
1982 Fiat X1/9 1500cc dual 45/DCOE GT race car
1987 Volvo 760 GLE daily&winter beater
1987 Alfa Romeo Milano (Gold) sold,
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Joined: March 19th, 2004, 6:23 pm

February 27th, 2005, 3:19 pm #4

http://forums.autoweek.com/thread.jspa? ... adID=13001

These will be powered by a GM V-6... there is light at the end of the mid engined tunnel for a X1/9, it can happen. And the Elise chassis is it!



http://www3.sympatico.ca/myronx19
Myron Samila
Toronto, Canada
1978 Fiat X1/9 1500cc/4spd/daily driver
1982 Fiat X1/9 1500cc FI/Faza 35/75/weekender
1982 Fiat X1/9 1500cc dual 45/DCOE GT race car
1987 Volvo 760 GLE daily&winter beater
1987 Alfa Romeo Milano (Gold) sold,
Quote

htf
Joined: May 5th, 2001, 4:29 pm

February 27th, 2005, 3:59 pm #5

There has been a lot of talk that, since it's been made clear Fiat can not "afford" to develop a mid-engine platform for this car "from scratch", they should consider SOME OTHER existing mid-engine platform out there in the world.

Just for fun, I sat back and imagined:

"Hmm. IF Fiat were going to go "buy" outright some existing mid-engine platform from ANY company in order to produce the X1/99 as mid-engine, what platform would / could they go for?"
Discussions here have often mentioned the Vauxhall VX220 because Vauxhall is owned by GM. The trouble is that the VX220 platform is not available to Fiat through their now dissolved partnership with GM as far as I've ever heard, so if they could get that platform, they would probably have to make a totally new and separate deal with GM in order to do it.

In fact, if they were going to do that, they might even just go straight to Lotus for the Elise platform, same thing, and there may be less hesitance on the part of Lotus, since who knows how GM would feel about getting involved in anything new with Fiat after the 2 Billion Dollar "put" payoff...

THEN, I had a truly wild and crazy idea!! I am virtually positive that this would NEVER happen, but, since we are just daydreaming here, I then thought, "well, Fiat owns majority stock in Ferrari, Ferrari has lots of mid-engine platforms, and they're Italian, and they have lots of mid-engine platforms, and Fiat owns majority stock..." (is that circular reasoning? )

So how about Fiat getting the least expensive mid-engine platform Ferrari has, shorten it a lot, narrow it a little, Fiat engine, body it up and WHAM-O, our new X

I know, no way that would EVER happen, EVER, but it REALLY WOULD be a 'baby Ferrari' then!

Just daydreaming... -Mac
I have a discreet knowledge of a very suitable, low cost and very available to FIAT - it's the X1/9 platform.
But please don't tell anyone.

Herzel
Green '85 X1/9
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DougESmith
DougESmith

February 27th, 2005, 4:37 pm #6

nt
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Joined: March 19th, 2004, 6:23 pm

February 27th, 2005, 4:53 pm #7


1) Cost to build, it was a complex chassis to begin with. So many different suppliers for every body panel....

2) It would never EVER pass today's crash and safety regulations... especially for US/Canada....

It is HEAVY... for its size anyhow.

You can't rehash this platform, not only did it rust.. it rusted because the panel fitment trapped water.. Alfa did the same thing with the GTV-6 (rather, Bertone).



http://www3.sympatico.ca/myronx19
Myron Samila
Toronto, Canada
1978 Fiat X1/9 1500cc/4spd/daily driver
1982 Fiat X1/9 1500cc FI/Faza 35/75/weekender
1982 Fiat X1/9 1500cc dual 45/DCOE GT race car
1987 Volvo 760 GLE daily&winter beater
1987 Alfa Romeo Milano (Gold) sold,
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Joined: April 18th, 2001, 2:41 pm

February 27th, 2005, 5:01 pm #8

nt
It's heavy (for what it is), is poorly designed (in terms of reliable fitting and hence water traps),&nbsp;it doesn't meet modern standards for safety (crumple zones) and most significantly it is hideously expensive to build.

I know this all sounds trivial but consider the Alcan shells. In theory they should have been very light but in order to retain any degree of strength they had to choose between redesigning the shell or increasing the thickness of panels to the point where they weren't much lighter than the original steel ones.

In order to correct the problems with the original shell you would be faced with the same type of problem and ultimately the cheap option is to make it heavy. Starting again puts us back at square one.

I've seen the hell Lotus had to go through to get the Elise chassis right and it was no small feat of engineering. Ultimately though they did get it right. The stupid thing is that (as already pointed out) for an old car there is very little wrong with the design. I've completely pulled apart the chassis and seen pretty much all of the problems with it. A quasi-spaceframe conversion like I have performed would make it viable for road use as a kitcar (relaxed regulations here in the UK but who knows for how long) but not as a production car (even in small volumes).

If you want the old X1/9 platform then buy an X1/9, spend money renovating it and look after it. There is nothing stopping you from changing the looks if you don't like them (except cost).


78 X1/9 TNB racer
96 TVR Griffith 500
97 Ford Explorer (all round tank and tow car)
http://www.the-lair.demon.co.uk/
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Joined: April 18th, 2001, 2:41 pm

February 27th, 2005, 5:02 pm #9

1) Cost to build, it was a complex chassis to begin with. So many different suppliers for every body panel....

2) It would never EVER pass today's crash and safety regulations... especially for US/Canada....

It is HEAVY... for its size anyhow.

You can't rehash this platform, not only did it rust.. it rusted because the panel fitment trapped water.. Alfa did the same thing with the GTV-6 (rather, Bertone).



http://www3.sympatico.ca/myronx19
Myron Samila
Toronto, Canada
1978 Fiat X1/9 1500cc/4spd/daily driver
1982 Fiat X1/9 1500cc FI/Faza 35/75/weekender
1982 Fiat X1/9 1500cc dual 45/DCOE GT race car
1987 Volvo 760 GLE daily&winter beater
1987 Alfa Romeo Milano (Gold) sold,
.

78 X1/9 TNB racer
96 TVR Griffith 500
97 Ford Explorer (all round tank and tow car)
http://www.the-lair.demon.co.uk/
Quote

Mac
Mac

February 27th, 2005, 8:20 pm #10

Well, Alfa is no longer going to be building the V-6, instead, they will be buying GM V6s, and Fiat is going to be selling diesel technology to GM.

So, it is plausable for Fiat to get the Lotus platform, either from GM or Lotus. Fiat just has to make it themselves, and it would have to be out of steel.

There isn't a transverse Ferrari platform in current production, and then developing a gear box to fit a North/South layout would be cost prohibitive. Nice idea though...

hehe, oh, and the 308GT4 would be incredibly expensive to build today, tubular chassis?!?! wow..

But the Lotus idea isn't too far off, platform sharing is the future .... cost savings thing.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/myronx19
Myron Samila
Toronto, Canada
1978 Fiat X1/9 1500cc/4spd/daily driver
1982 Fiat X1/9 1500cc FI/Faza 35/75/weekender
1982 Fiat X1/9 1500cc dual 45/DCOE GT race car
1987 Volvo 760 GLE daily&winter beater
1987 Alfa Romeo Milano (Gold) sold,
Not that a Ferrari chassis would ever happen (let's not fool ourselves ) but just for the sake of argument, it would still be a lot cheaper and easier for Fiat to create some custom engine mountings or cradle for a transverse engine on a pre-existing Longitudinal engine chassis than it would be for them to develop an entire platform from scratch... one would think...

As I've never mass-produced cars personally, I have no frame of reference but in theory it would seem that way

Peace, -Mac
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