Mobil 1 0W-40

Mobil 1 0W-40

Dan N
Dan N

May 21st, 2008, 4:25 pm #1

I picked up some 0W-40 for my '74 thinking that the "0" viscosity value would be good for the infrequent use and start-ups the car gets. But now I'm thinking that may NOT be the correct way of looking at that. That a higher viscosity would keep a film in place better. Any comments?
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Joined: August 29th, 2005, 1:53 am

May 21st, 2008, 5:14 pm #2

I wouldn't use the 0-40 weights. The new, very light weight, synthetics have been developed for the newer generations of engines with very tight internal clearances.

You didnt' say if your '74 had the motor rebuilt recently or not. A new engine which had rebuilt with clearances at the tight end of the spectrum, maybe, but I would recommend against it.

You will be far better off going with something in the 10W40 range. If you are in a cooler climate, maybe 10W30.

I should point out that Mobil 1 synthetic is what I use in my '74 and my racecars. Autocross engines have the unique issue of having to run at maximum output without the benefit of "warmup laps" to stabilize engine and oil temps. Many times my car's have had to make runs in 45 degree (F) temps at 8am on a September morning in Kansas as well as 100+ degree August afternoons in Gainesville, Florida.

After doing some oil temperature monitoring I have chosen 5W30 for my racecar and 10W50 for the street car.

Steve
1x5
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Chris Schaeffer
Chris Schaeffer

May 21st, 2008, 5:20 pm #3

I picked up some 0W-40 for my '74 thinking that the "0" viscosity value would be good for the infrequent use and start-ups the car gets. But now I'm thinking that may NOT be the correct way of looking at that. That a higher viscosity would keep a film in place better. Any comments?
Actually, you want to pay attention to Sheer ratings. That will help make up for a lack of ZDDP. Mobil one 0-40 has a excelelnt sheer rating, where there other oils do not.

Car oils have seen a huge reduction in Zinc (ZDDP) to protest the catlyist from a early death. ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphates) does not prevent wear! It manages wear that the proper engine oil can usually prevent.

http://www.ilma.org/resources/ilsac_finalstd011404.pdf

Here is a breifing on Oil Specs. Namly GF-4. ILSAC GF-4 has three components. Engine protection, fuel efficiency and emissions system protection.

Many engines require much better engine protection than any API or ILSAC rating indicates. Keep in mind also the problem with using the thicker oils, is, weak ring tension does not scrape it off the cylinder walls very good. It is slower to start doing it's lubrication duties on start up.

The HD Diels 15W-40 products have a High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) rating that is similar to the ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 and C3 ratings. Some guys think being a diesel 15W-40 oil is why the cams last longer,becuase it had hgiher ZDDP freaked when it was reduced,but the real difference is the HTHS and similar requirements.

Keep these bullet points in mind.

SAE xx rates oil viscosity at 100C/212F

SAE xxW rates oil viscosity at one temperature that is well
below zero but varies depending on the rating (IE: -35)

HTHS rates oil viscosity and shear at 150C/302F

All SAE 0W-30,5W-30,10W-30,0W-40,5W-40 and 10W-40 ratings have the exact same minimum HTHS requirements. (2.9 at 150C/302F) . So a 10W-40 is NOT necessarily any thicker at 150C than a 0W-30.

An SAE 0W-30 that is also ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 or C3 approved has a minimum HTHS requirement of 3.5 at 150C/302F

So an ACEA A3/B4 approved SAE 0W-30 is actually required to be much thicker at 150C/302F and provide far better HTHS shear protection than an SAE 10W-40 that is not ACEA A3/B4 approved is required to provide. YES, a 0W-30 can be thicker than a 10W-40!!! SAE 15W-40 has special requirements that exceed the individual "15W" and "40". The include a minimum HTHS of 3.7 at 150C/302F.

Hey, you asked.

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Chris Schaeffer
Chris Schaeffer

May 21st, 2008, 5:46 pm #4

I wouldn't use the 0-40 weights. The new, very light weight, synthetics have been developed for the newer generations of engines with very tight internal clearances.

You didnt' say if your '74 had the motor rebuilt recently or not. A new engine which had rebuilt with clearances at the tight end of the spectrum, maybe, but I would recommend against it.

You will be far better off going with something in the 10W40 range. If you are in a cooler climate, maybe 10W30.

I should point out that Mobil 1 synthetic is what I use in my '74 and my racecars. Autocross engines have the unique issue of having to run at maximum output without the benefit of "warmup laps" to stabilize engine and oil temps. Many times my car's have had to make runs in 45 degree (F) temps at 8am on a September morning in Kansas as well as 100+ degree August afternoons in Gainesville, Florida.

After doing some oil temperature monitoring I have chosen 5W30 for my racecar and 10W50 for the street car.

Steve
1x5
Forget everything you thought you knew about viscosity.

The Mobil 1 0W-40 Is really about the same viscosity as 30 weight.

SAE 30 range is from 9.3-12.5 cSt viscosity at 100C/212F and anything over 2.9 cP HTHS viscosity at 150C/302F. ILSAC approved XW-30 products are typically around 10 cSt at 100C/212F and not much more than 2.9 at 150C/302F. To make matters worse, an SAE 0/5/10W-40 has exactly the same HTHS viscosity requirement as SAE 30.

Castrol Syntec 5W-30 is only 9.7 cSt at 100C/212F.

Most European cars require an 150C/302F HTHS viscosity of at least 3.5 cP and have a 100C/212F viscosity of about 12.

EXAMPLE: The Castrol Syntec 0W-30 is 12.1 cSt at 100C/212F and the BMW labeled Castrol 5W-30 is 12.3 cSt at 100C/212F. At 12.5 cSt at 100C/212F any of these would be labeled as a XW-40. So, there are extremely close to qualifying as xW-40.


The Mobil 1 0W-40, the Castrol Syntec 0W-30 and most European OEM XW-30 products (Saab, BMW, VW, etc) should be considered to be in the same viscosity range. The Mobil 1 5W-30, Mobil 1 0W-30 and Castrol Syntec 5W-30 are all much thinner and should NOT be considered to be in the same viscosity range even though the SAE viscosity rating might lead you to assume so.

The Castrol Syntec 5W-30 (and many other 5W-30 products) is in roughly the same category as most SAE 5W-20 products.

The Castrol Syntec 0W-30 is in roughly the same category as
most 0W-40 or 5W-40 products.

When discussing thick oil and thin oil, they meet right smack in the middle of a very wide "SAE 30 range".

SAE viscosity ratings are NOT what most of us have assumed.

The ACEA rating often tells us more about the actual viscosity than the SAE rating.

EXAMPLE: An ACEA A3/B3 approved 0W-30 can be significantly THICKER at 150C/302F than an SAE 10W-40. The SAE 10W-40 is only required to be a 2.9 cP HTHS viscosity at 150C/302F. The ACEA A3/B3 0W-30 is required to be at least a 3.5 cP HTHS at 150C/302F.

That Mobil 1 0W-40 has passed the API energy conserving ratings and was ILSAC GF-3 approved (prior to the introduction of GF-4). Fuel efficiency is tied to viscosity and this 0W-40 outperforms almost all of the new "high mileage" 5W-30 products in fuel efficiency.

ILSAC, ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5 and American OEM approved xW-30 products are thin 30 weights.

VW, BMW, MB, Saab and ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 approved xW-30 products are thick 30 weights.

These two categories of xW-30 should be kept very much separate. Thick 30 weights can be replaced with appropriate 40 weights but some 40 weights are too thin to replace thick 30 weights.
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Joined: September 25th, 2004, 5:43 am

May 21st, 2008, 7:39 pm #5

Actually, you want to pay attention to Sheer ratings. That will help make up for a lack of ZDDP. Mobil one 0-40 has a excelelnt sheer rating, where there other oils do not.

Car oils have seen a huge reduction in Zinc (ZDDP) to protest the catlyist from a early death. ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphates) does not prevent wear! It manages wear that the proper engine oil can usually prevent.

http://www.ilma.org/resources/ilsac_finalstd011404.pdf

Here is a breifing on Oil Specs. Namly GF-4. ILSAC GF-4 has three components. Engine protection, fuel efficiency and emissions system protection.

Many engines require much better engine protection than any API or ILSAC rating indicates. Keep in mind also the problem with using the thicker oils, is, weak ring tension does not scrape it off the cylinder walls very good. It is slower to start doing it's lubrication duties on start up.

The HD Diels 15W-40 products have a High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) rating that is similar to the ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 and C3 ratings. Some guys think being a diesel 15W-40 oil is why the cams last longer,becuase it had hgiher ZDDP freaked when it was reduced,but the real difference is the HTHS and similar requirements.

Keep these bullet points in mind.

SAE xx rates oil viscosity at 100C/212F

SAE xxW rates oil viscosity at one temperature that is well
below zero but varies depending on the rating (IE: -35)

HTHS rates oil viscosity and shear at 150C/302F

All SAE 0W-30,5W-30,10W-30,0W-40,5W-40 and 10W-40 ratings have the exact same minimum HTHS requirements. (2.9 at 150C/302F) . So a 10W-40 is NOT necessarily any thicker at 150C than a 0W-30.

An SAE 0W-30 that is also ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 or C3 approved has a minimum HTHS requirement of 3.5 at 150C/302F

So an ACEA A3/B4 approved SAE 0W-30 is actually required to be much thicker at 150C/302F and provide far better HTHS shear protection than an SAE 10W-40 that is not ACEA A3/B4 approved is required to provide. YES, a 0W-30 can be thicker than a 10W-40!!! SAE 15W-40 has special requirements that exceed the individual "15W" and "40". The include a minimum HTHS of 3.7 at 150C/302F.

Hey, you asked.
Hey Chris!!

Good to see you are still alive. FLOSTL BBQ on May 31st. Any progress on your X?


jd


Code: Select all

        1978                1986  \
[/b]
2005 FFO Photo Gallery
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Chris Schaeffer
Chris Schaeffer

May 21st, 2008, 7:45 pm #6

Where is the BBQ being held? I would love to come!

My Fiat is still unchanged. I just have no where to start getting ti together. I sure want to. I daydream about it, and I cant wait to do it.... BUt, status unchanged.

I was just thinking about parting the thing out, actually. Who knows.
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Joined: September 25th, 2004, 5:43 am

May 21st, 2008, 7:52 pm #7



jd


Code: Select all

        1978                1986  \
[/b]
2005 FFO Photo Gallery
Quote

Joined: October 13th, 2005, 1:41 am

May 22nd, 2008, 1:38 am #8

Actually, you want to pay attention to Sheer ratings. That will help make up for a lack of ZDDP. Mobil one 0-40 has a excelelnt sheer rating, where there other oils do not.

Car oils have seen a huge reduction in Zinc (ZDDP) to protest the catlyist from a early death. ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphates) does not prevent wear! It manages wear that the proper engine oil can usually prevent.

http://www.ilma.org/resources/ilsac_finalstd011404.pdf

Here is a breifing on Oil Specs. Namly GF-4. ILSAC GF-4 has three components. Engine protection, fuel efficiency and emissions system protection.

Many engines require much better engine protection than any API or ILSAC rating indicates. Keep in mind also the problem with using the thicker oils, is, weak ring tension does not scrape it off the cylinder walls very good. It is slower to start doing it's lubrication duties on start up.

The HD Diels 15W-40 products have a High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) rating that is similar to the ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 and C3 ratings. Some guys think being a diesel 15W-40 oil is why the cams last longer,becuase it had hgiher ZDDP freaked when it was reduced,but the real difference is the HTHS and similar requirements.

Keep these bullet points in mind.

SAE xx rates oil viscosity at 100C/212F

SAE xxW rates oil viscosity at one temperature that is well
below zero but varies depending on the rating (IE: -35)

HTHS rates oil viscosity and shear at 150C/302F

All SAE 0W-30,5W-30,10W-30,0W-40,5W-40 and 10W-40 ratings have the exact same minimum HTHS requirements. (2.9 at 150C/302F) . So a 10W-40 is NOT necessarily any thicker at 150C than a 0W-30.

An SAE 0W-30 that is also ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 or C3 approved has a minimum HTHS requirement of 3.5 at 150C/302F

So an ACEA A3/B4 approved SAE 0W-30 is actually required to be much thicker at 150C/302F and provide far better HTHS shear protection than an SAE 10W-40 that is not ACEA A3/B4 approved is required to provide. YES, a 0W-30 can be thicker than a 10W-40!!! SAE 15W-40 has special requirements that exceed the individual "15W" and "40". The include a minimum HTHS of 3.7 at 150C/302F.

Hey, you asked.
actually a bit back a bunch of the mechs from work attended a librication course and they said the same thing when they got back. If I recall correctly they said that using a 10w40 or 20w50 just because of higher ambient temps can actually damage the engine, due to low viscosity at low temps. The 0W oils offers better viscosity at the lower temp while still maintianing it at the higher temps. They had lots of graphs that showed this, was neat none the less.

Richard Shaw
82 x
Ontario, Canada
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Rob
Rob

May 22nd, 2008, 12:25 pm #9

Actually, you want to pay attention to Sheer ratings. That will help make up for a lack of ZDDP. Mobil one 0-40 has a excelelnt sheer rating, where there other oils do not.

Car oils have seen a huge reduction in Zinc (ZDDP) to protest the catlyist from a early death. ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphates) does not prevent wear! It manages wear that the proper engine oil can usually prevent.

http://www.ilma.org/resources/ilsac_finalstd011404.pdf

Here is a breifing on Oil Specs. Namly GF-4. ILSAC GF-4 has three components. Engine protection, fuel efficiency and emissions system protection.

Many engines require much better engine protection than any API or ILSAC rating indicates. Keep in mind also the problem with using the thicker oils, is, weak ring tension does not scrape it off the cylinder walls very good. It is slower to start doing it's lubrication duties on start up.

The HD Diels 15W-40 products have a High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) rating that is similar to the ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 and C3 ratings. Some guys think being a diesel 15W-40 oil is why the cams last longer,becuase it had hgiher ZDDP freaked when it was reduced,but the real difference is the HTHS and similar requirements.

Keep these bullet points in mind.

SAE xx rates oil viscosity at 100C/212F

SAE xxW rates oil viscosity at one temperature that is well
below zero but varies depending on the rating (IE: -35)

HTHS rates oil viscosity and shear at 150C/302F

All SAE 0W-30,5W-30,10W-30,0W-40,5W-40 and 10W-40 ratings have the exact same minimum HTHS requirements. (2.9 at 150C/302F) . So a 10W-40 is NOT necessarily any thicker at 150C than a 0W-30.

An SAE 0W-30 that is also ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 or C3 approved has a minimum HTHS requirement of 3.5 at 150C/302F

So an ACEA A3/B4 approved SAE 0W-30 is actually required to be much thicker at 150C/302F and provide far better HTHS shear protection than an SAE 10W-40 that is not ACEA A3/B4 approved is required to provide. YES, a 0W-30 can be thicker than a 10W-40!!! SAE 15W-40 has special requirements that exceed the individual "15W" and "40". The include a minimum HTHS of 3.7 at 150C/302F.

Hey, you asked.
So in a nutshell,which oil specifically should we all be using ? And which oil should we be using in our gear boxes?
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Chris Schaeffer
Chris Schaeffer

May 22nd, 2008, 1:22 pm #10

Old cars are tought to call. In the old days (when these cars were on the showroom) there was much more Zinc(ZDDP) in the oil. It was a cheap way to protect the engine.

What ZDDP does is....Well.... You know the film Aluminum Siding gets over the years, kind fo the same thing. That film becomes a buffer between the metal parts.

If You don't have catalytic converters a diesel rated oil would be OK depending on the driving conditions. Two things are critical. Oil flow and a high shear (HTHS) rating of at least 3.5.

Any 15W-40 is required to have an HTHS of at least 3.5. Any ACEA A3/B3 approved oil (including 0W-30, etc) is required to have an HTHS of at least 3.5. If you have converters, that is the way to go. Less ZDDP means longer catalyst life.

If this is going to be a daily driver, 15W-40 will delay and reduce oil flow during starting and warm-up. Likewise if it is a show car that is only started to drive it on & off the trailer, 15W-40 is not a good choice. But, if it is going to be driven primarily for long trips, rallys or classic races, 15W-40 would be great.

Select from a 15W-40 or 5W-40 CI-4 or CJ-4 diesel oil, or a 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-40, 0W-40, 5W-40 ACEA A3/B3 or A3/B4 approved gasoline engine oil depending on the expected driving conditions.

ILSAC GF-4 approved 5W-30 is lower SAPS/ZDDP than ILSAC GF-4 10W-30 (everyone ignores that). CI-4 is very high SAPS/ZDDP. CJ-4 still has a lot more SAPS/ZDDP than the older ILSAC GF-3.
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