help understanding h/l door motors....

help understanding h/l door motors....

Joined: December 29th, 2005, 6:30 am

June 8th, 2008, 4:50 am #1

OK, normally I'm pretty good with basic automotive circuits, but I'm tired of trying to interpret the schematic on this one.

How the heck do I test a door motor? I've got it off the car, and don't want to start randomly applying voltage to this thing.

I numbered the following diagram for convenience.....

Quote

Joined: September 25th, 2004, 5:43 am

June 8th, 2008, 4:59 am #2

Headlight buckets not opening/closing properly? Or not at all? It is usually the diodes on the motors.

There is some diode info if you read through this thread.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/12159/me ... 7t+go+down

Of course, it could be a completely different problem you are having.

jd


Code: Select all

        1978                1986  \
[/b]
2005 FFO Photo Gallery
Quote

Joined: December 29th, 2005, 6:30 am

June 8th, 2008, 7:05 am #3

Having problems with 1 motor functioning intermittently, the other motor isn't functioning at all. Probably a simple fix but I'm sidetracked on understanding the system.

I looked at the schematic and got irritated with the seemingly unnecessary complexity of the system, but before I criticize I want to understand it. 4 relays to power a motor for less than 5 seconds makes about as much sense to me as powering the headlight circuit through the ignition switch.

Yes, I've seen the various mods, but haven't seen anything about the basic electrical function of the motors themselves.
Quote

Joined: December 21st, 2004, 3:04 am

June 8th, 2008, 8:06 am #4

OK, normally I'm pretty good with basic automotive circuits, but I'm tired of trying to interpret the schematic on this one.

How the heck do I test a door motor? I've got it off the car, and don't want to start randomly applying voltage to this thing.

I numbered the following diagram for convenience.....

... with virtually every circuit for not only this car, but for most.

When I worked for AT&T we had Schematic Drawings, Building Drawings for interconnections and then we had Circuit Discriptions... which told the STORY and teh THEORY of how each circuit was supposed to work and WHEN they were supposed to work.

We are missing the Discriptions, and unfortunately, for this circuit, I'm at a loss with the simplified schematic.  I would need to see the switches associated with the motor also and I do think I could find that stuff... but its gotta be a bunch of work... especially if it AIN'T broke.

I do know a few things but it goes against my "grain" when I look at the componants. 

I believe the motor ALWAYS operates in ONE direction which kinda negates the purpose of the diodes... but there they are and if they are indeed defective, the motors will not function.

Also... I had only one opeating and same with the lights... and one that went CRAZY at times.  I WHOLESALED everything and clean all the connections with a Dremel Tool and FABRIC brush... especially all the grounds and blossums... and then tested and replace all my lamps that were defective...

Everything worked perfectly afterwards.

Hopefully Mr. Brown can jump in, or you can page him for more details.


My best,



Tony
Black Tooth and me... since 1983!
<a href="http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f108/ ... gFixed.jpg " target="_blank">
<img src="http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f108/ ... gFixed.jpg ";></a>
<font face_"Times Bew Roman" size=1>Disclaimer: This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the sender, or, for that matter, any other carbon-based life form; Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, is unintentional and coincidental; All models are 18 years of age or older; Dry clean only, do not use bleach, Tumble dry and remove immediately; Do not bend, fold, staple or mutilate; Anchovies, cheese or jalapenos may be added to orders upon request for an additional charge; Professional driver on a closed course, do not attempt to duplicate; Your actual mileage may vary; No substitutions are allowed; Available for a limited time only while supplies last; Offers are void where prohibited by law; Humor is provided "as is" without any warranties expressed or implied; The user assumes full liabilities and originator is not liable for damages due to use or misuse; We are an equal opportunity employer, with no regard to race, religion, sex, or sexual preference; No shoes, no shirt, no service; Read at your own risk; This post may contain material some may find to be objectionable; Parental advisory: Explicit lyrics; keep away from pets and small children; limit one-per-family please; No money down; No purchase necessary; Ask us about our guns-for-dope trade-in plan; You need not be present to win; Some assembly required; Batteries not included; Action figures sold separately; Contents were packed full at the factory, but may have settled during shipping; Peanuts and peanut products are produced in this establishment and also consumed by the author; Sanitized and sealed for your protection; Do not use if safety seal is broken; Do not use while operating a motor vehicle or heavy equipment; Safety goggles may be required during use; Use gloves when handling; Call before you dig; Use only with proper ventilation; For external use only, if a swelling, redness, rash, or irritation develops, discontinue use; Do not place near a flammable or magnetic source; Keep away from open flames; Avoid inhaling fumes or contact with mucous membranes; Contents under pressure, may explode if incinerated; Smoking may be hazardous to your health; No smoking allowed, except in designated areas; The best safeguard, second only to abstinence, is the use of a good laugh; Text is made from 100% recycled electrons and magnetic particles; No animals were harmed while writing this post; No salt, MSG, preservatives, artificial color or flavor added; If ingested, do not induce vomiting, If symptoms persist, consult a comedian; Ribbed for your pleasure, slippery when wet; Must be 18 to enter; No one under 21 allowed; We check IDs to age 40; Seniors Welcome; Ask for our Senior Menu; Present discount coupons to cashier before totaling; An 18% gratuity will be added to the total for parties of 8 or more; We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. Return all carts to the store; No dogs allowed, except for the visually impaired; Penalties for early withdrawal, one size fits all; Offer is valid only at participating sites; Prices slightly higher west of the Rockies; Allow four to six weeks for delivery; If defects are found, do not attempt a repair, return to an authorized service center; Please remain seated until the vehicle has come to a complete stop; Objects in the mirror may be closer than they appear; Fasten seat belts; In the unlikely event of a loss of cabin pressure, oxygen masks will fall from above, cover your face first, then assist those around you. Your seat cushion may be used as a floatation device. This disclaimer is invalid in the event of hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, sonic booms, vibration, electromagnetic radiation from nuclear blasts or any other act of war, unauthorized repair, improper installation, misuse, typos, misspelled words, missing or altered signatures, and incidents owing to computer or disk failure, accidental file deletions, and Acts of God. Other restrictions may, or may not apply.</font>
Quote

Joined: June 24th, 2004, 12:00 am

June 8th, 2008, 11:51 am #5

OK, normally I'm pretty good with basic automotive circuits, but I'm tired of trying to interpret the schematic on this one.

How the heck do I test a door motor? I've got it off the car, and don't want to start randomly applying voltage to this thing.

I numbered the following diagram for convenience.....

Eric,

The motors do run in just one direction. To test the motor itself, apply 12 V to terminal 1 and earth the black (earth) wire.

The principle of these motors is similar to windscreen wipers, where there is a cam operated switch provided so that the motor always parks in the same place. The headlight pod system is made more complex by the need for these motors to park in two places.

There should be just three relays controlling the motors. One provides overall control to the running and correct parking of the motors, the other two relays are just slaves to relieve the parking switches of the motor current. The main control relay is wired as a changeover relay that commands "pods up" or "pods down" by supplying 12 V to either terminal 2 or 4 in your diagram when you turn on or turn off your lights. Then, the relevant cam switch connects that 12 V to terminal 3, which then powers the motor via the slave relay. The diodes are there to prevent current getting where it isn't wanted, and actually help to simplify the circuitry! They stop the two cam switches fighting each other to park the motor in their "desired" position.

The cam switches ensure that if the motor is ever in a position other than fully up or fully down, current is supplied and the motor runs on until the "commanded" park position is found. Each switch looks after one half of the total 360 degrees that the pod operating crank turns, in a simple sequential way. So, by swapping the wires on one pod, you could give your exxy the James Finlayson look!

Hope that helps.

Cheers R
Quote

htf
Joined: May 5th, 2001, 4:29 pm

June 8th, 2008, 3:31 pm #6




HaXD
Herzel, in Israel

WhiteX
The late Green '85 X1/9
Quote

Joined: December 29th, 2005, 6:30 am

June 8th, 2008, 7:30 pm #7

Eric,

The motors do run in just one direction. To test the motor itself, apply 12 V to terminal 1 and earth the black (earth) wire.

The principle of these motors is similar to windscreen wipers, where there is a cam operated switch provided so that the motor always parks in the same place. The headlight pod system is made more complex by the need for these motors to park in two places.

There should be just three relays controlling the motors. One provides overall control to the running and correct parking of the motors, the other two relays are just slaves to relieve the parking switches of the motor current. The main control relay is wired as a changeover relay that commands "pods up" or "pods down" by supplying 12 V to either terminal 2 or 4 in your diagram when you turn on or turn off your lights. Then, the relevant cam switch connects that 12 V to terminal 3, which then powers the motor via the slave relay. The diodes are there to prevent current getting where it isn't wanted, and actually help to simplify the circuitry! They stop the two cam switches fighting each other to park the motor in their "desired" position.

The cam switches ensure that if the motor is ever in a position other than fully up or fully down, current is supplied and the motor runs on until the "commanded" park position is found. Each switch looks after one half of the total 360 degrees that the pod operating crank turns, in a simple sequential way. So, by swapping the wires on one pod, you could give your exxy the James Finlayson look!

Hope that helps.

Cheers R
Thanks! Let's see if I understand:

- when the pod is in "up" or "down" (not moving) there should be no voltage to any terminal

- to make the pod move and park, 12v should be applied to terminals 1 and 3, AND either 2 or 4 depending on whether you want the motor to go up or down..

Quote

Joined: June 24th, 2004, 12:00 am

June 8th, 2008, 8:04 pm #8

With the pods parked, there will be voltages on some terminals. Assuming you have the earth wire connected, if you want to force a pod to move, apply 12 V to terminal 1, which directly supplies the motor. If you want to check the slave relay is ok, apply 12 V to terminal 3, this should actuate the relay and run the motor. If everything is connected correctly, you only need to "blip" the motor out of its rest position and the self-parking will kick in automatically, running the motor until it again reaches the "commanded" position.

I can't recall which terminal commands up or down, but you will find applying voltage to 2 or 4 will have no effect, since the motor is already parked in the position commanded by 2 or 4 respectively. On the bench, you will find that you have to apply voltage to each terminal alternately to make it run for 180 degrees at a time. Apply voltage to both 2 and 4 simultaneously and you will get continuous running, which is what happens when you fit the wrong kind of relay in the fusebox (see Daz's post nearby!).
Quote

Joined: August 19th, 2007, 8:50 pm

June 8th, 2008, 8:10 pm #9

Quote

Joined: December 21st, 2004, 3:04 am

June 9th, 2008, 5:08 am #10

With the pods parked, there will be voltages on some terminals. Assuming you have the earth wire connected, if you want to force a pod to move, apply 12 V to terminal 1, which directly supplies the motor. If you want to check the slave relay is ok, apply 12 V to terminal 3, this should actuate the relay and run the motor. If everything is connected correctly, you only need to "blip" the motor out of its rest position and the self-parking will kick in automatically, running the motor until it again reaches the "commanded" position.

I can't recall which terminal commands up or down, but you will find applying voltage to 2 or 4 will have no effect, since the motor is already parked in the position commanded by 2 or 4 respectively. On the bench, you will find that you have to apply voltage to each terminal alternately to make it run for 180 degrees at a time. Apply voltage to both 2 and 4 simultaneously and you will get continuous running, which is what happens when you fit the wrong kind of relay in the fusebox (see Daz's post nearby!).
... I have seen or read.

When these guys finally get through their conumdrum... could we put it all together and condense it a bit and place it up in Best Of?&nbsp; I'd be happy to help if I can... but I've just been LUCKY so far with these buggers... so I haven't gone looking for trouble... and haven't any real experience with them.

Everything you said appears to fit perfectly with what I have seen though.&nbsp; The diodes are still a bit strange if you ask me... especially since the motors only go in one direction.&nbsp; I think the cams and relays woulda been enough.

Anyway... they're there and easily tested and replaced...&nbsp; Hope to see more on this soon.

&nbsp;


My best,



Tony
Black Tooth and me... since 1983!
<a href="http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f108/ ... gFixed.jpg " target="_blank">
<img src="http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f108/ ... gFixed.jpg ";></a>
<font face_"Times Bew Roman" size=1>Disclaimer: This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the sender, or, for that matter, any other carbon-based life form; Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, is unintentional and coincidental; All models are 18 years of age or older; Dry clean only, do not use bleach, Tumble dry and remove immediately; Do not bend, fold, staple or mutilate; Anchovies, cheese or jalapenos may be added to orders upon request for an additional charge; Professional driver on a closed course, do not attempt to duplicate; Your actual mileage may vary; No substitutions are allowed; Available for a limited time only while supplies last; Offers are void where prohibited by law; Humor is provided "as is" without any warranties expressed or implied; The user assumes full liabilities and originator is not liable for damages due to use or misuse; We are an equal opportunity employer, with no regard to race, religion, sex, or sexual preference; No shoes, no shirt, no service; Read at your own risk; This post may contain material some may find to be objectionable; Parental advisory: Explicit lyrics; keep away from pets and small children; limit one-per-family please; No money down; No purchase necessary; Ask us about our guns-for-dope trade-in plan; You need not be present to win; Some assembly required; Batteries not included; Action figures sold separately; Contents were packed full at the factory, but may have settled during shipping; Peanuts and peanut products are produced in this establishment and also consumed by the author; Sanitized and sealed for your protection; Do not use if safety seal is broken; Do not use while operating a motor vehicle or heavy equipment; Safety goggles may be required during use; Use gloves when handling; Call before you dig; Use only with proper ventilation; For external use only, if a swelling, redness, rash, or irritation develops, discontinue use; Do not place near a flammable or magnetic source; Keep away from open flames; Avoid inhaling fumes or contact with mucous membranes; Contents under pressure, may explode if incinerated; Smoking may be hazardous to your health; No smoking allowed, except in designated areas; The best safeguard, second only to abstinence, is the use of a good laugh; Text is made from 100% recycled electrons and magnetic particles; No animals were harmed while writing this post; No salt, MSG, preservatives, artificial color or flavor added; If ingested, do not induce vomiting, If symptoms persist, consult a comedian; Ribbed for your pleasure, slippery when wet; Must be 18 to enter; No one under 21 allowed; We check IDs to age 40; Seniors Welcome; Ask for our Senior Menu; Present discount coupons to cashier before totaling; An 18% gratuity will be added to the total for parties of 8 or more; We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. Return all carts to the store; No dogs allowed, except for the visually impaired; Penalties for early withdrawal, one size fits all; Offer is valid only at participating sites; Prices slightly higher west of the Rockies; Allow four to six weeks for delivery; If defects are found, do not attempt a repair, return to an authorized service center; Please remain seated until the vehicle has come to a complete stop; Objects in the mirror may be closer than they appear; Fasten seat belts; In the unlikely event of a loss of cabin pressure, oxygen masks will fall from above, cover your face first, then assist those around you. Your seat cushion may be used as a floatation device. This disclaimer is invalid in the event of hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, sonic booms, vibration, electromagnetic radiation from nuclear blasts or any other act of war, unauthorized repair, improper installation, misuse, typos, misspelled words, missing or altered signatures, and incidents owing to computer or disk failure, accidental file deletions, and Acts of God. Other restrictions may, or may not apply.</font>
Quote