clutch issue - adjustment?!?! (w/pics)

clutch issue - adjustment?!?! (w/pics)

Joined: March 19th, 2004, 6:23 pm

May 4th, 2008, 3:50 am #1

Hi all,

I had an issue with my clutch last year. I thought something let go on the clutch disc itself, and sure enough.. there was a broken spring which was rubbing against the flywheel and preventing the clutch from disengaging/engaging properly.





Ok, here is my question regarding PROPER clutch adjustment. I had a habit of keeping the throwout bearing real close to the pressure plate. This required that the tensioner spring on the threaded rod be removed.

Now that I've re-installed the tensioner spring, the clutch slave doesn't release the clutch properly. The pedal feels like it is incredibly sloppy, because the slave piston isn't contacting the threaded rod. ?!?! I have the jamb nuts all the way forward. I've never been able to figure this one out.. so, what AM I doing wrong? Today I replaced the clutch, the throwout bearing, and pressure plate. I've just run out of adjustment, the tensioner spring is fully compressed... how can I bring the slave piston closer to the rod?




Thanks!!


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Joined: July 30th, 2006, 2:01 pm

May 4th, 2008, 5:00 am #2

Your 'return' spring doesn't look OEM. Any chance it is a replacement and it isn't sized properly. I'm thinking that to much of a spring is causing the slave piston to return further in then it should. Have you tried running without the 'return' spring?

On my 87X, the spring was OEM, much thinner, and attached from the arm and to a special washer on the top bell housing bolt. I don't know the specifics but the mounting plate for the slave changed at some point. For the record, I don't run a spring any longer. Reason being the spring caused my throwout bearing to ride up against the diaphragm spring fingers. At some point the wear between the two components became excessive and the throwout shattered the diaphragm spring. What a mess...

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htf
Joined: May 5th, 2001, 4:29 pm

May 4th, 2008, 5:31 am #3

Hi all,

I had an issue with my clutch last year. I thought something let go on the clutch disc itself, and sure enough.. there was a broken spring which was rubbing against the flywheel and preventing the clutch from disengaging/engaging properly.





Ok, here is my question regarding PROPER clutch adjustment. I had a habit of keeping the throwout bearing real close to the pressure plate. This required that the tensioner spring on the threaded rod be removed.

Now that I've re-installed the tensioner spring, the clutch slave doesn't release the clutch properly. The pedal feels like it is incredibly sloppy, because the slave piston isn't contacting the threaded rod. ?!?! I have the jamb nuts all the way forward. I've never been able to figure this one out.. so, what AM I doing wrong? Today I replaced the clutch, the throwout bearing, and pressure plate. I've just run out of adjustment, the tensioner spring is fully compressed... how can I bring the slave piston closer to the rod?




Thanks!!

It does seem that your spring is fully compressed and holding the slave from bottoming properly.


HaXD
Herzel, in Israel

WhiteX
The late Green '85 X1/9
Quote

Joined: December 21st, 2004, 3:04 am

May 4th, 2008, 9:23 am #4

Hi all,

I had an issue with my clutch last year. I thought something let go on the clutch disc itself, and sure enough.. there was a broken spring which was rubbing against the flywheel and preventing the clutch from disengaging/engaging properly.





Ok, here is my question regarding PROPER clutch adjustment. I had a habit of keeping the throwout bearing real close to the pressure plate. This required that the tensioner spring on the threaded rod be removed.

Now that I've re-installed the tensioner spring, the clutch slave doesn't release the clutch properly. The pedal feels like it is incredibly sloppy, because the slave piston isn't contacting the threaded rod. ?!?! I have the jamb nuts all the way forward. I've never been able to figure this one out.. so, what AM I doing wrong? Today I replaced the clutch, the throwout bearing, and pressure plate. I've just run out of adjustment, the tensioner spring is fully compressed... how can I bring the slave piston closer to the rod?




Thanks!!

I must admit... I've never seen one installed on an X... not even on Herzels... as I was the last one under his.

The slave cylinders are kinda a universal item but that rod is probably a specific FIAT part.  I do remember seeing a hole in the end of the rod... but I have never seen a spring or washer included, much less the carter pin.

This just MIGHT have been the CAUSE of your entire dilemma... The T/O bearing constantly rubbing on the P/P and everything got hot... In any case... pull it all off and try readjusting the two nuts... the entire hydraulic assembly then becomes rather "self-adjusting" much like your disc brakes do.

Like I said up front... I must have messed with twenty different X's and have never seen that "tensioner spring".... nor have I ever used one.


My best,



Tony
Black Tooth and me... since 1983!
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Joined: March 1st, 2007, 11:20 pm

May 4th, 2008, 12:38 pm #5

<NT>
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Joined: March 19th, 2004, 6:23 pm

May 4th, 2008, 12:46 pm #6

I must admit... I've never seen one installed on an X... not even on Herzels... as I was the last one under his.

The slave cylinders are kinda a universal item but that rod is probably a specific FIAT part.&nbsp; I do remember seeing a hole in the end of the rod... but I have never seen a spring or washer included, much less the carter pin.

This just MIGHT have been the CAUSE of your entire dilemma... The T/O bearing constantly rubbing on the P/P and everything got hot... In any case... pull it all off and try readjusting the two nuts... the entire hydraulic assembly then becomes rather "self-adjusting" much like your disc brakes do.

Like I said up front... I must have messed with twenty different X's and have never seen that "tensioner spring".... nor have I ever used one.


My best,



Tony
Black Tooth and me... since 1983!
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Hi Tony, (and all)..

The tensioner spring wasn't there for the past 12 years, so the clutch grenaded from another reason.

The return spring on my setup is not OEM, however, as A P mentioned, it does hook onto the slave cylinder, not a bolt on the casing. That's how it is OE for '82, the little ear on the slave serves this purpose.


These tensioner springs appeared on 5spd models, and most flew off at some point. Don't know if the later cars had them. In section 18 of the service manual, you can see it in the parts blow-up.


The spring is part #17, with the two stepped retaining rings as # 16 and 18, and a cotter pin holds it to the rod.


I suspect that this spring holds the rod on the fork so it never "chatters" when unloaded by the slave.







I'll change my non OEM spring, or at least remove it completely and see what happens.. I think I have an OEM spring somewhere.


My car always had this spring, 'till I changed the slave once, and I could never get it back on! So I removed it, stored it in a parts cabinet (12 years ago!) and put it back on yesterday!

A longer threaded rod would solve my problem!



Thanks!

Myron Samila
Toronto, Canada

1982 Fiat X1/9 F.I.
2006 Pontiac Vibe
Last edited by myronx19 on May 4th, 2008, 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: March 19th, 2004, 6:23 pm

May 4th, 2008, 12:47 pm #7

<NT>
it's there!

Myron Samila
Toronto, Canada

1982 Fiat X1/9 F.I.
2006 Pontiac Vibe
Quote

Eric Hamilton (Durham NC)
Eric Hamilton (Durham NC)

May 4th, 2008, 2:43 pm #8

Hi all,

I had an issue with my clutch last year. I thought something let go on the clutch disc itself, and sure enough.. there was a broken spring which was rubbing against the flywheel and preventing the clutch from disengaging/engaging properly.





Ok, here is my question regarding PROPER clutch adjustment. I had a habit of keeping the throwout bearing real close to the pressure plate. This required that the tensioner spring on the threaded rod be removed.

Now that I've re-installed the tensioner spring, the clutch slave doesn't release the clutch properly. The pedal feels like it is incredibly sloppy, because the slave piston isn't contacting the threaded rod. ?!?! I have the jamb nuts all the way forward. I've never been able to figure this one out.. so, what AM I doing wrong? Today I replaced the clutch, the throwout bearing, and pressure plate. I've just run out of adjustment, the tensioner spring is fully compressed... how can I bring the slave piston closer to the rod?




Thanks!!

...Until you got me looking at parts diagrams....
The only diagrams that include the rod tensioner spring are diagrams for the factory five-speed setup, which is not what you have.

The 4-speed and the 5-speed have different spring setups on the clutch operating lever. On the 4-speed, the spring is anchored to the slave cylinder support bracket, so wants to retract the threaded rod. On the 5-speed, the spring is anchored to the bell housing and wants to extend the threaded rod. This was supposed to be an improvement because it eliminated any need to adjust the free play in the threaded rod; the spring keeps the release bearing up against the pressure plate as the disk wears. In practice, it doesn't seem to work so well, and Chris Obert even recommends retrofitting the old style setup: http://www.fiatplus.com/members/tech1198.htm

That retrofit has been done to your car... but once the spring is anchored to the slave cylinder support so that it is retracting the rod instead of extending it, you shouldn't need the rod tensioner spring at all. You can take it off completely, and if you want you can remove the spring on the operating lever as well, the thing will work just fine without without it.

(One caveat... I've never owned a post-78 car so all I've ever seen first-hand are the four-speed setups).
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Joined: October 13th, 2005, 1:41 am

May 4th, 2008, 2:59 pm #9

Hi Tony, (and all)..

The tensioner spring wasn't there for the past 12 years, so the clutch grenaded from another reason.

The return spring on my setup is not OEM, however, as A P mentioned, it does hook onto the slave cylinder, not a bolt on the casing. That's how it is OE for '82, the little ear on the slave serves this purpose.


These tensioner springs appeared on 5spd models, and most flew off at some point. Don't know if the later cars had them. In section 18 of the service manual, you can see it in the parts blow-up.


The spring is part #17, with the two stepped retaining rings as # 16 and 18, and a cotter pin holds it to the rod.


I suspect that this spring holds the rod on the fork so it never "chatters" when unloaded by the slave.







I'll change my non OEM spring, or at least remove it completely and see what happens.. I think I have an OEM spring somewhere.


My car always had this spring, 'till I changed the slave once, and I could never get it back on! So I removed it, stored it in a parts cabinet (12 years ago!) and put it back on yesterday!

A longer threaded rod would solve my problem!



Thanks!

Myron Samila
Toronto, Canada

1982 Fiat X1/9 F.I.
2006 Pontiac Vibe
the parts x has it



As previously posted, it does appear that the heavy return spring might be the cause. A pic of my driver, the return spring is much lighter. (and yah i know, the slave needs to be replaced )



Richard Shaw
82 x
Ontario, Canada
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Joined: March 19th, 2004, 6:23 pm

May 4th, 2008, 4:50 pm #10

...Until you got me looking at parts diagrams....
The only diagrams that include the rod tensioner spring are diagrams for the factory five-speed setup, which is not what you have.

The 4-speed and the 5-speed have different spring setups on the clutch operating lever. On the 4-speed, the spring is anchored to the slave cylinder support bracket, so wants to retract the threaded rod. On the 5-speed, the spring is anchored to the bell housing and wants to extend the threaded rod. This was supposed to be an improvement because it eliminated any need to adjust the free play in the threaded rod; the spring keeps the release bearing up against the pressure plate as the disk wears. In practice, it doesn't seem to work so well, and Chris Obert even recommends retrofitting the old style setup: http://www.fiatplus.com/members/tech1198.htm

That retrofit has been done to your car... but once the spring is anchored to the slave cylinder support so that it is retracting the rod instead of extending it, you shouldn't need the rod tensioner spring at all. You can take it off completely, and if you want you can remove the spring on the operating lever as well, the thing will work just fine without without it.

(One caveat... I've never owned a post-78 car so all I've ever seen first-hand are the four-speed setups).
I've often wondered what this ear was on this bolt!!





I'm assuming the reason why they did this was to eliminate chatter of the idler bearing. It all makes sense now.

I think I have the fix all sorted out.


Thanks..






Myron Samila
Toronto, Canada

1982 Fiat X1/9 F.I.
2006 Pontiac Vibe
Quote