So Greater Daemons...

Tactics, strategy, or general musings 40K

So Greater Daemons...

FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: 13 Jun 2011, 10:26

12 Jul 2017, 22:20 #1

I have to admit I was initially blown away by their stat increases, but does anybody else feel that they're actually more brittle now?

The humble bolter wounds them on 5+'s now and all the previous threats to them (plasma cannons, Lascannons etc) are still threats to them. In fact, even more so given that they are multi-wound causing weapons. Against even non Bloodthirsters; Grav weapons are even more deadly in a sense because like bolters they've gone from wounding on 6's to 5's (even if they are only D1). Bloodthirster's still may laugh in the face of humble bolter fire; but the others don't (...well, guo might too), especially not the Kipper.

Sure they're scary if they get into combat (but well, probably never as scary as we'd all like them to be given their price), but it seems like that is just not going to be likely. At the moment, the Kipper is easiest to summon in attempt to bypass this problem, but the others are harder to do so (of course; GuO is probably going to survive anything, and Nurgle actually got a lot faster this edition).

Having said that; I still think that Greater Daemons are slightly more scary for any unit that engages them... and there killing power is fairly evenly split imo as to whether they're fighting marines/terminators or even wraithguard.
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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Marandamir
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Marandamir
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13 Jul 2017, 16:20 #2

I would agree The stat adjustments were more or less cosmetic once they adjusted the 'to-wound' table and weapons doing more damage now. So I would agree they are somewhat fragile in the new edition. I played magnus one game and he is a hoss with a 4++ rerolling 1s and 18 wounds and he was still shot down to over half dead in the first round before I even got to move him. This edition is a lethal game and greater demons are not immune to it. The changes to nerf cover and armor penetration reducing armor saves it means invuln saves are what you end up relying on and with big guns doing d6 type damage payloads it means big targets like greater demons are just gonna die if peeps prioritize them as targets, but that can be said about anything short of characters with shooting protection. I took magnus in a game and he got shot over half dead in a single shooting phase before I got to move him and he has a 4++ and rerolls 1s and has 18 wounds! I've seen vids where knights are torched in a single round as well from heavy weapon spam.

My beef with them is their buff is only to share their leadership. It's not even morale immunity like you would expect from an army that was entirely immune to morale in the last 2 codexes. You take Abaddon and I was floored at how big of a force multiplier he. Park him in the middle gun line and he'll enable serious damage due to his reroll buff. He also grants morale immunity and is a beefcake himself, all with character shooting protection! I was very sad that greater demons weren't given more beef like that. Hell, even belakor grants reroll ones and in my opinion he may be better than the greater demons as a support unit save for the fact he gets CSM psychic powers, 2 of which affect heratic astartes only (lame!). The LD buff is decent and the psychic powers on most of the greater demons are ok. Pair the LD buff with a icon and with some luck you may find yourself recouping casualties in the morale phase rather than losing them.

I have considered using the demonic summon rules with the GUO and keeper of secrets. They are only 12 and 11 power and that is managable on 3d6. This can get them close enough to limit their shooting exposure before they can get into melee and start handing down beatdowns. One thing I found though is if you want a GUO you should take the name ruinstorm prince from forgeworld first. He's about the same cost and has more abilities, one of which grants rerolls to demonic summoning and another gives his FNP a 4+ against 1 dmg weapons. So his durability is higher and he can get into position easier to summon another GUO for instance.
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gjnoronh
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gjnoronh
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Joined: 08 Feb 2005, 16:29

13 Jul 2017, 17:00 #3

I have liked my thirster so far but didn't play the last few editions of 40K
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: 13 Jun 2011, 10:26

15 Jul 2017, 09:50 #4

I'm a little bit confused as to what roll a Greater Daemon plays exactly. Thinking about it a bit more and I think two Daemon Princes can outperform any of them, and one of them is already that much more survivable (Chaos Daemon variety Daemon Princes have been errated back down to 8 wounds in line with their CSM cousins if you weren't aware) and can't be shot shenanigans.

I have to say the morale benefit is a big one for CD. Now that we're susceptible to shooting, the extra Ld is a nice sponge, especially since our GD's are Ld10 for the most part (especially the one's that radiate their morale benefit).

I guess what I expected was a Greater Daemon that could more reliably than not get into close combat and wreck face. But given that people are stacking Heavy supports like Devastator's nowadays (because troops aren't truly 'necessary') the big bads never really get to stretch their legs.

The funny thing is; if they had like 24-26 wounds each, and one or more extra attacks base, I think they would be quite powerful and still be quite killable... you'd just need to concentrate a bit more shooting at them. At the moment; they almost seem like afterthoughts still. I'd also accept something around 18-20 wounds for a 4++ base as well.
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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Marandamir
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Marandamir
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03 Aug 2017, 23:07 #5

I was really hoping that demon princes would be the 'imperial knights' of the demon faction. They'd come in around 500 pts and have upwards of 20-25 wounds and pack some serious beat down offense. Alas, I was sadly disappointed. Still, they are still pretty stout and do still back a punch. I think the paradigm changes you need to adapt to is that **** is just gonna die in this edition. It doesn't matter if its a 30 man infantry unit, a land raider, a imperial knight, magnus, or a greater demon. If the enemy wants to kill it it will prolly die and maybe even before you get to do anything with it. This is just a lethal edition and you just need to get used to stuff dying. That said, I think greater demons are indeed useful still, but they do got big targets on their back. With SPROT (shooting protection) being a thing for low wound characters it means that high profile targets without SPROT get alot of target priority hate and greater demons are indeed high profile.

If you wanna see badassery though I recommend looking at the forgeworld demon lords. Scabbieathrax is just an unstoppable machine. T9, 22 wounds, 4++, disgustingly resilient and a -1 to hit debuff in fight phase, and access to the psychic power that heals d3 wounds he is pretty much a walking mountain. His offense is limited to a decent flamer pistol and like 6 or 7 D-weapon style beatface melee attacks. His speed is an issue but he can pretty much clear the board section wherever he is. All that and he is one of the cheaper demon lords :P angarath is not as durable but his offense is considerably better, not to mention the tzeentch lord is still very good as well :P
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gjnoronh
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gjnoronh
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05 Aug 2017, 08:06 #6

I had actually missed that errata on Daemon Princes now to go look it up.
Are we in a golden Age of Fantasy? Check this out
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Marandamir
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Marandamir
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07 Aug 2017, 22:11 #7

They only dropped wounds to 8 so they get shooitng protection now. It's a good change cuz now you don't have to take heratic astartes DPs in your demon list :P
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: 13 Jun 2011, 10:26

11 Aug 2017, 03:29 #8

I don't think I ever wanted a normal CSM Prince though. I mean yes, they give re-roll 1's to hit to other same legion heretics or same god allegiance daemons, but then they loose all the unique stuff that makes them Daemons of that God. No Unstoppable Ferocity, or Epheremal Form etc.

I hear they didn't even change this for the upcoming new CSM codex either, which is a colossal mistake. Personally I think they should have just made one Daemon Prince entry between the two sub-factions and then combined their traits. Easier to maintain for one and easier to find and eliminates potential for confusi.
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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Marandamir
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Marandamir
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15 Aug 2017, 17:34 #9

Thematically it makes sense to seperate them. CSM princes get 'death to the false emperor' and loses the god traits. This fits as those demon princes ascended to princedom and would have retained their core motivations and not necessarily been granted the boons of the gods.

From a rules perspective it makes sense as well based on how they divided up the psychic powers. It's like how belakor is. He's a named demon prince but he only has access to the dark hereticus discipline, meaning he can only buff CSM and not demons with it (assuming the new powers all still keyword off heratic astartes). By dividing them out you can pick a prince that matches what you are fielding and don't need to worry about your psychic powers not working on your army.
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gjnoronh
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gjnoronh
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15 Aug 2017, 19:22 #10

I hate the fact Belakor is Dark Hereticus doesn't seem right to me at all.
Are we in a golden Age of Fantasy? Check this out
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: 13 Jun 2011, 10:26

15 Aug 2017, 22:30 #11

I'm a computer programmer, and one of the things constantly drilled into us as part of studying it is to eliminate duplication of effort etc. So I guess I get triggered by such things like two different Daemon Princes that are in fact just Daemon Princes. The fact they had to errata the nerf to the Daemon Daemon Prince to bring it in line with the CSM variety is the stand out reason why they shouldn't actually make two different profiles for what is essentially the same thing.

I disagree about the whole Death to the False Emperor being their core motivation and all that though. For one; not every Daemon Prince started 'life' as a Chaos Space Marine, and two it's kinda nonsensical. When is a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh not a Daemon of Slaanesh, when it's a space marine? What?

Incidentally; Be'lakor is not a Dark Hereticus. While he does have access to the lore he misses out on the good things about the lore. He only has access really to the Gift of Chaos power (toughness test or take D3+3 mortal wounds) or of course Infernal Gaze.
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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gjnoronh
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gjnoronh
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16 Aug 2017, 16:55 #12

Oh I get re Belakor but I think this should be the most daemonically focused Daemon Prince. His powers not buffing his main force doesn't make sense to me.

He was introduced as a general option in the WFB Storm of Chaos book in 2004 or so to lead a Daemonic Legion army (in fact the book that launched this forum!)

He should be able to summon and buff daemons but based on his psychic powers and lack of keywords he can't.
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Marandamir
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Marandamir
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17 Aug 2017, 22:52 #13

yes, the best practices of the IT industry does frown upon duplication of effort but this is just a game and GW took a lazy approach to it. They kept the CSM ascended DPs in one dataslate and the demon DPs in another. While you are right that a DP of slaanesh is a demon of slaneesh, but what makes you think all demons of slaneesh deserve their quicksilver blahblah power? What if that DP was a CSM and hates the false emperor? how do you manage access to that ability? There are some logic flow problems of just using a single dataslate to represent 2 distinct faction entities, even if they are practically identical. They should have just printed the one and put a caveat in the CSM book that they could take CPs from the demon section at a higher cost and bolted on the <legion> keyword and death the false emperor. That would have been simple and easy, but since GW didn't even cut/paste the profile right in their implementation they obviously weren't focused on doing it the right way :P
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: 13 Jun 2011, 10:26

22 Aug 2017, 23:22 #14

Because that's the trait that all Slaanesh daemons seem to have in common? I mean, aside from the CSM variety of course because *reasons*. In any case I know there isn't much point belly aching about it haha.
As to managing access to Death to the False Emperor; you manage access to it the same way every other wargear is limited, by purchasing it? Doesn't have to be to much; say 10 points or some sort of arbitrary number.

So Death Guard are coming next. Quite looking forward to it despite not actually planning on getting Death Guard with the possible exception of Mortarion. Because I think he looks cool. Sure he isn't Fulgrim, but I guess that can't be helped. After reading the Hereticus book though; it seems like all the Daemon Primarchs are getting active (except Fulgrim, but he was getting 'active' back in Fall of Cadia book series), which makes me quite excited. I'd love to see Daemon PErturabo, or better still; Daemon Lorgar.
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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Marandamir
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Marandamir
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23 Aug 2017, 18:14 #15

Deathguard gives me hope. I was quite disheartened when I saw plague marines pricing in 8th edition. I"ve always adored the plague marine concept with super durability and access to good guns. Makes marines seem like they don't suck :P However, they've always priced them stupid (same with grey knights) due to the durability combined with their average marine offense. It made them very expensive and basically unplayable. The new datasheet in the CSM book though is pretty hoss. 2 poisoned flamers are add to their shooting options and they got a slew of new melee options as well. Makes them very customizable and possibly better. The cost reduction is ok but if they get added to troops with obsec in the new codex they'll be a pretty stout choice for death guard armies.

Mortorion I'm excited for. It'll be hard to balance them against magnus or gulliman though. Magnus is VERY tough and his offense is no joke. I'm curious of mortarion will be a buffer unit or just a beat stick. I hope a bit of both :P

Any rumors on the new units they'll be adding? they already release the stuff from the box set so i'm not sure how much more they'll reveal. I'm somewhat tantilized at the topic :P
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