New Codex announced

Tactics, strategy, or general musings 40K
Marandamir
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Marandamir
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Joined: Jul 29 2011, 10:26 PM

Jan 8 2018, 09:25 PM #16



frontline games codex review.  Pretty much reads through everything in the dex.  I'm happy with alot of the stuff, just not the costs of the strategems.  Like the 'denizens of the warp' power where you pay cps to deep strike a unit.  In theory it adds back a needed function for demons in the ability to deep strike.  However, its 2cp if it's a power level 9+ unit.  So a 30 man unit of pink horrors to pop out and flicker fire stuff costs 2 cps.  This is something nid players can do for free with devil gaunts and a trygon hole :(  so that is kinda frustrating.

The combos have alot of potential as well.  I think there is another strategem to give a khorne unit a 3d6" charge for a phase.  Really good when combined with a instrument to get +1" to their charge distance, the loci which lets then reroll charge rolls, and also the deep strike strategem above.  You could have 30 bloodletters within 6" of a khorne character deep strike in and need to get an 8 on 3d6 with a reroll.  Odds are heavily in your favor and that many bloodletters can take down an imperial knight if they can call get in range to swing.  Only hiccup is it costs 4 or more command points to do.  Unless yer running multiple smaller detachments or the big fat one that gets you 9+cps you don't alot left over besdies that combo.  Not to mention if you may have had to pay cps to deep strike the character to get the loci reroll as well :(

Anyway, check it out and let me know what you guys think.
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: Jun 13 2011, 10:26 AM

Jan 17 2018, 12:59 PM #17

So my thoughts on it is that it's a strong army book; with bits of it stronger than Astra Militarium via some interplays; particularly deep strike strategem. Of course; it's slightly annoying to say the least that it's a strategem, and not say part of the army as has been in the past.

My other thought is that I like for the most part the Loci abilities. I think Tzeentch's is overly complicated (although I think it also describes Tzeentch in a nutshell very well - it's rather meta to be honest). Honestly I think Slaanesh is dare I say it; deceptively very strong in this codex - which surprises me because a lot of the online reviews seems to gloss over the army quite a bit - focussing on the other gods quite a bit. Khorne is very good in conjunction with the deep strike strategem; but I think Slaanesh is generally so fast we don't actually need to spend that strategem unless you're keeping your Greater Daemon out of alpha strike vulnerability. As to Nurgle; I think it's quite underwhelming and only of very minor benefit all things considered.

I do like that Bloodthirster's got a buff. The extra hit on 6's is deceptively very good. With some (very expensive) stacking you could have an Insensate Rage (once again my pick as being the best option after Wrath of Khorne got it's lowest level 'nerfed' to be inline with the other flavours) sweep attacking 18 times due to the Khorne +1 attack warlord trait and of course Skarbrand (who can do the same god damn thing!). I also quite like that the Skullcannon is quite useful too.

Super disappointed with Tzeentch in general. They seemed to have been almost ignored other than some QoL improvements with Screamer attacks. The Horror nerf was probably necessary; but imo that just makes the proposed Smite changes even worse to stomach because it negatively affects both Nurgle and Slaanesh armies even more given their lack of high strength ap shooting options.

Nurgle - I think GW's push is obvious. Great Unclean One is very powerful (probably not worth 320 points though). I think the bilesword is probably the best option due to the +1 to cast for all psychic powers. Love the new herald interplays and hope that all those new options (and how they do different things) might be a sign into the future that other split Herald choices may do different things - but I kinda doubt it looking at both Khorne and Tzeentch options.

Slaanesh - I think is very good. Especially with that Locus trait. Keepers of Secrets can be very resilient in close combat with forcing an enemy unit -2 attacks to quash it's elites with up to -3 to hit. Ouch. Not sure if regaining wounds on kills outweighs a -3 to hit the keeper in the first place; given that a keeper is almost always going to attack first, would be interesting to find out.

Strategem wise is a mixed bag imo. Given our Hellforged Traits I probably would be tempted to go with the extra hellforged option. I think Daemonic Possession; while situational - is very good. Quite able to kill the usual Psyker out there. Denizens of the warp is very likely going to be the main one everyone uses. Warp Surge sounds good to but is quite expensive.
For good specific strategems; Locus of Wrath, Banner of Blood, Magical Boon and imo Aura of Acquiescence stands out as being the most valuable. The Khorne attack again is very expensive for attacking at the end of the Fight phase; and honestly I think it's kinda overkill. Locus of Grace seems very very situational, but might stack well with warlord trait.

I'm quite split on Warlord Traits actually. I think Glory to Battle for Khorne works very well on Bloodthirsters generally, but well - I think Oblivious to Pain is likely to be the most popular. Devastating Blow is quite awesome on heralds; but quite underwhelming imo on a BT. Generally I think there's something for everything and all playstyles; which is actually something pretty incredible. For example; Slaanesh's Savage Hedonist might be so underwhelming that for a while I thought why would you take it instead of Murderdance (+1 attack vs +D3 attacks on the charge), but Savage Hedonist would stack with Hysterical Frenzy, while Murderdance wouldn't. 

As to the Hellforged Artefacts. There's some stand outs like the Forbidden Gem, Impossible Robe, Armour of Scorn and Horn of Nurgle's Rot. There's none that I can see that I strongly dislike at least, or one's that I can't see much use for (for example CSM's Slaanesh Lash pistol one). Mark of Excess would combo quite well with Murderdance/Savage Hedonist and maybe even the Fatal Caress warlord trait.

So yeah, those are my thoughts. I'm still disappointed that Greater Daemons are still what they are; especially after Hive Tyrants got their massive buff. I was hoping T8 across the board.
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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gjnoronh
Lord of the Skull Throne
gjnoronh
Lord of the Skull Throne
Joined: Feb 8 2005, 04:29 PM

Jan 17 2018, 05:49 PM #18

Very nice review man.   
Are we in a golden Age of Fantasy? Check this out
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/07/ ... n-age.html
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Marandamir
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Marandamir
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Jan 26 2018, 06:18 AM #19

I haven't gotten a total feel for the codex yet but I think it's a pretty strong one for sure.  There are some solid combo's for each of the ruinous powers.  Khorne got all the goodies I wanted them to get but after watching some 'how to assault' videos I think the army plays backwards from how 8th ed supports assaults.  In this edition you want to reach out and assault as many things as you can and not destroy them.  You consolidate and trap something so it cannot fall back (just surround a non flying model) to ensure you cannot be shot next turn, then wreck face on your opponents turn.  Khorne don't play that way.  They want to smash face the turn they assault and this I think makes them very susceptible to counter attack and may not do well in the competitive meta.

I agree with FeeZ on slaneesh being pretty good.  They are indeed fast and they were tuned up a bit in a way that makes them a bit more survivable.  You can get aura debuffs that reduce attacks on enemy units.  Like 1 to 2 attacks per model depending on if you combo some stuff.  That is HUGE in this edition where alot of the strong assault units only have 2-3 attacks.  It nearly ensures you have the time to carve through your opponent with those rending claws and get to the objectives to win.

Nurgle to me has a couple offensive combos.  Everyone seems to focus on the bonus damage that plaguebearers get.  To me, it's more about the durability of the unit.  Miasma of pestilence + a 30 man unit of plague bearers gives a flat -2 to hit it.  That means the unit remains at strength when it gets into combat and you can then give it +1 to wound with virulent blessing.  Hitting on 3s due to the spoilpox herald (who also lets you move +2").  You also get to reroll failed wound rolls where every 6 you roll does like 3-4 damage due to the locus comboing with virulent blessing.  That is all before you bother with any strategems.  But what good is a single lethal plaguebearer unit?  Well, it can do some work but why not cross out into some allied areas and bring alone a slaneesh caster to give an enemy -1 to hit that -2 to hit plague bearer unit?  Then stick a fat unit of deathguard plague marines behind it and make them untargetable with their strategem.  Or maybe ignore all that and just consider playing a plague grove where you drop those evil trees on the table and abuse +2 cover in the open cross dex stuff like obliterators, demon princes, or mortarion?  To me the combos seem endless with nurgle (especially with alot of the CSM demons) and I like what they did there.  time will tell though if it'll be enough to put the fear of the plague father into your opponents.

Tzeentch I think is what i'm most eager to play.  They didn't appear to get much but to me the built in enough non-psychic shooting and assault offense that the army is viable again.  I really like them being a psychic shooting army, but it just didn't seem to work in 8th very well.  Smite spam is cool and all but with the beta-smite rules and the horrors getting nerfed to be effectively useless at smite it just seems they had zero offense.  GW finally buffed the shooting offense of tzeentch and that is pretty awesome.  Flamers having a 12" pistol flamer is huge now.  You can get 6 flamers in a 8 Power Level unit to deep strike for 1 command point.  Those flamers and pink horror guns are now based off strength which can be  buffed by their various heralds.  Those combos are pretty hoss where you can get 90 S4 shots out of a horror unit (rerolling 1s if you have a demon prince nearby) and 6d6 S5 ap-1 flamer hits ain't shabby either and you can pick and choose who needs the +1 to wound buff from flickering flames.  Plus you still got smites to rock as well :p  I agree though that they are missing some serious mid strength shooting but I think they got alot of potential and while the burning chariots are kind of a weak heavy support option IMO, the soul grinder and screamers can put on some hurt in close combat to make up the difference.

I'll give my first game a try this weekend.  We'll see how tzeentch holds up.
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Marandamir
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Marandamir
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Jan 29 2018, 06:25 AM #20

Well I played some tzeentch vs nids and got doggie stomped :P   The shooting combos work well but the army is a bit limited.  A 30 man pink horror unit with a herald and demon prince nearby with flickering fire becomes a scary unit.  Problem is they can get shot the crap the same as they shoot stuff to crap.  If you get shot down below 20 models your offense takes a huge dip due to losing the 20+ model count buff.  I expected that would happen so I took 2 of the units and it allowed some flexibility in who got the flicker fire buff.  The flamers are awesome though.  I dropped 12 down on a unit of 20 genestealers and burnt em to a crisp.  That 12" flamer lets them torch you at their leisure and also on overwatch.  I got em killed though and in hindsight it is better to try to get more use out of them than as an alpha strike sacrifice.

I did find the chapter approved new character rules sucked nuts.  I had a 30 man pink horror unit prepped to drop 90 shots into the closest visible unit  (a  neurenthrope character) only to find that I couldn't shoot it because there was a closer MC on the opposite side of a giant ass mountain.  So even through my pink horrors could ONLY see the character and it was the ONLY thing in range, I still couldn't shoot it because the unit I couldn't see on the other side of the mountain was closer.  So my unit couldn't shoot at all (the closest target wasn't visible, and the visible character wasn't the closest target).  That rules update was moronic.  I understand the rule was to prevent people parking a land raider in the way to block visibility to units thus allowing characters to be targeted.  However, the way they fixed it was RETARDED.

Anyway, I digress.  While the shooting was cool and threatening.  It wasn't enough.  I only had like 4 effective units and 4 support characters.  The screamers and flamers ate it and then I was just shooting troop guns while my opponent had plenty of chaff still to take and hold objectives and widdle down my army.  Next time I'd emphasize a more rounded list with less big hitter combos.  Though alpha strike flamers are awesome :) 
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: Jun 13 2011, 10:26 AM

Jan 29 2018, 11:58 AM #21

Marandamir wrote: Well I played some tzeentch vs nids and got doggie stomped :P   The shooting combos work well but the army is a bit limited.  A 30 man pink horror unit with a herald and demon prince nearby with flickering fire becomes a scary unit.  Problem is they can get shot the crap the same as they shoot stuff to crap.  If you get shot down below 20 models your offense takes a huge dip due to losing the 20+ model count buff.  I expected that would happen so I took 2 of the units and it allowed some flexibility in who got the flicker fire buff.  The flamers are awesome though.  I dropped 12 down on a unit of 20 genestealers and burnt em to a crisp.  That 12" flamer lets them torch you at their leisure and also on overwatch.  I got em killed though and in hindsight it is better to try to get more use out of them than as an alpha strike sacrifice.

I did find the chapter approved new character rules sucked nuts.  I had a 30 man pink horror unit prepped to drop 90 shots into the closest visible unit  (a  neurenthrope character) only to find that I couldn't shoot it because there was a closer MC on the opposite side of a giant ass mountain.  So even through my pink horrors could ONLY see the character and it was the ONLY thing in range, I still couldn't shoot it because the unit I couldn't see on the other side of the mountain was closer.  So my unit couldn't shoot at all (the closest target wasn't visible, and the visible character wasn't the closest target).  That rules update was moronic.  I understand the rule was to prevent people parking a land raider in the way to block visibility to units thus allowing characters to be targeted.  However, the way they fixed it was RETARDED.

Anyway, I digress.  While the shooting was cool and threatening.  It wasn't enough.  I only had like 4 effective units and 4 support characters.  The screamers and flamers ate it and then I was just shooting troop guns while my opponent had plenty of chaff still to take and hold objectives and widdle down my army.  Next time I'd emphasize a more rounded list with less big hitter combos.  Though alpha strike flamers are awesome :) 
IIRC those aren't the new character rules but the ones as it is in the game. I remember because I couldn't shoot an Ork Mekboy with a shokk attak gun for much the same reason and this was shortly after launch. The newish character rules are supposed to be so you can't hide characters behind other characters, which was prevalent due to Culexus lists at a time.

Your experience matches my expectations and my own experiences. Tzeentch now in particular is forced into a ranged list for the most part. Flamers are awesome although funnily enough online most people can't really see much past the Bloodletter bomb lists (which frankly are a bit too good in the sense that you practically have to force yourself to either engage multiple units or somehow bubble wrap a unit but not kill it well enough. Which I don't know if that's actually a valid tactic because Bloodletters are very lethal). Probably better off to drop multiple smaller units of them rather than larger squads though.

My personal opinion is that you/we can't really play our troops in MSU formations anymore. The low survivability of the units (with perhaps the exception being Pink Horrors due to Ephermeal daemons) means that any unit casualties are going to screw the unit pretty well, especially since we take  morale tests for both close combat and shooting (which is probably the biggest 'culture shock').
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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Marandamir
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Marandamir
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Jan 29 2018, 04:24 PM #22

Yeah, I am finding that MSU style play is only valid for filling detachment slots to get command points.  Units are only killy if they are taken en mass.  Hell, that 20 man genestealer unit took 18d6 flamer shots dropped it down to a lone model.  So even taking mid sized units isn't killy enough.  Taking big units though becomes a problem because then you are suceptible to morale and you either watch models flee or you spend the CP to pass your tests.  You also have less effective objective control units if you invest heavily in BSU (big sized units).

That does remind me.  Are you making morale checks even if you cannot fail the test?  I think with the Icon you take the test even if you lose a single model and if you roll a 1 you gain the free models to the unit.  I've been playing it wrong if that is the case :(
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: Jun 13 2011, 10:26 AM

Jan 29 2018, 11:24 PM #23

Marandamir wrote: Yeah, I am finding that MSU style play is only valid for filling detachment slots to get command points.  Units are only killy if they are taken en mass.  Hell, that 20 man genestealer unit took 18d6 flamer shots dropped it down to a lone model.  So even taking mid sized units isn't killy enough.  Taking big units though becomes a problem because then you are suceptible to morale and you either watch models flee or you spend the CP to pass your tests.  You also have less effective objective control units if you invest heavily in BSU (big sized units).

That does remind me.  Are you making morale checks even if you cannot fail the test?  I think with the Icon you take the test even if you lose a single model and if you roll a 1 you gain the free models to the unit.  I've been playing it wrong if that is the case :(
I take it even if I can't fail. Free models essentially
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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sac_ld
Daemonette
sac_ld
Daemonette
Joined: Dec 2 2010, 02:45 PM

Jan 30 2018, 05:13 AM #24

So as an oversight on GW's part, a Harald of Slaanesh from the index and from the codex has there +1S stack as they are different names.
Hive Fleet Giwakwa (Kraken)
Great Chenoo (Genestealer Cult)
Angels Vermillion (Blood Angels)
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Marandamir
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Marandamir
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Jan 30 2018, 05:16 AM #25

sac_ld wrote: So as an oversight on GW's part, a Harald of Slaanesh from the index and from the codex has there +1S stack as they are different names.
That is neat but oversights should get FAQ'd or errata'd out within a few months so I wouldn't go breaking your back painting up some heralds to spam.
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sac_ld
Daemonette
sac_ld
Daemonette
Joined: Dec 2 2010, 02:45 PM

Jan 30 2018, 05:23 AM #26

Marandamir wrote:
sac_ld wrote: So as an oversight on GW's part, a Harald of Slaanesh from the index and from the codex has there +1S stack as they are different names.
That is neat but oversights should get FAQ'd or errata'd out within a few months so I wouldn't go breaking your back painting up some heralds to spam.
Oh I'm not suggesting that one should, just thought it was amusing to point out since Slaanesh didn't really get much from the codex data sheet wise.
Hive Fleet Giwakwa (Kraken)
Great Chenoo (Genestealer Cult)
Angels Vermillion (Blood Angels)
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: Jun 13 2011, 10:26 AM

Jan 30 2018, 08:10 AM #27

That's not just a thing with Slaanesh either, Tzeentch and I assume Khorne follows that trend as well.
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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Marandamir
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Marandamir
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Jan 30 2018, 07:41 PM #28

That is interesting.  Tzeentch shooting really wants that +STR so cheesing those herald combo's would work.  I did check on the herald's for khorne and they are priced the same but the newly named datasheets get a blade of blood over a hellblade.  So unless the aura buffs stack there isn't a reason to take the index heralds as the new ones are plain better.  Either way, once someone abuses it and word gets out I would expect a FAQ or errata that invalidates some or all entries from the indexes.
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Marandamir
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Marandamir
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Feb 1 2018, 05:40 AM #29

the thousand son codex is bringing tzeentch some new playthings.  The demon prince from that book can cast 2 powers a turn and has access to CDM, demons, and the new psychic discipline.  A very nice addition :)

The thing i'm stoaked about though is the mutalist creature.  It's a heavy support MC but it sports some pretty hoss aura abilities.  You can pick the effect from the chart or double the effects by randomly rolling and supposedly the buffs stack.  One thing that was pretty huge was a +1 str buff that affected tzeentch units.  That adds a huge buff to demon shooting armies that key off model strength.  Flamers and pink horrors now can get their weapon damage into the mid to high strength ranges depending on how the stacking works.

I'm mostly stoaked on the flamer spam options.  Rubric marines can take inferno flamers and combined with tzeentch flamers you can dish out alot of close ranged damage and you have built in assault defenses as well with overwatch :P
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: Jun 13 2011, 10:26 AM

Feb 2 2018, 10:58 PM #30

I wish Daemon Princes in general had more casting opportunities than just one, but maybe that's because they didn't want to make them too good in relation to sorcs/librarians. Then again, they could have just let them buy mastery levels like before.
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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