Chaos leaks

Tactics, strategy, or general musings 40K

Chaos leaks

sac_ld
Daemonette
sac_ld
Daemonette
Joined: 02 Dec 2010, 14:45

31 May 2017, 15:54 #1

Some chaos leaks are Link Snipped mostly Tzeentch and Slaanesh units.

MODERATOR as GW has been sending cease and desists to sites hosting links to the leaked information I'm going to remove this link to avoid unwanted attention. You can probably find it somewhere else using google. GJNORONH
Hive Fleet Giwakwa (Kraken)
Great Chenoo (Genestealer Cult)
Angels Vermillion (Blood Angels)
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gjnoronh
*Custom Title*
gjnoronh
*Custom Title*
Joined: 08 Feb 2005, 16:29

02 Jun 2017, 21:44 #2

I snipped out the link as noted above.
I am curious what people would suggest for someone (me) getting back into 40K after a long time. New rules set has me interested in digging into 40K again.

Any thoughts on straight DoC armies. I don't really want to go down the CSM bandwagon right of the bat.
Are we in a golden Age of Fantasy? Check this out
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/07/ ... n-age.html
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: 13 Jun 2011, 10:26

04 Jun 2017, 00:30 #3

For the most part I like the new Daemon stuff. 8th ed is like this fantastic melting pot between fluff and gameplay. I don't think the Tzeentch stuff however has really survived the transfer into 8th, at least not by initial glances.

The one thing I'm not a fan of is Daemonic Ritual. While it *sounds* cool; in Matched Play games you are heavily, heavily penalised. First you have to buy the units; then you sacrifice mobility for one of your characters (which might not sound like much until you take into account that Daemons as a whole are very limited in shooting options, especially since atm we don't have Daemonic Gifts) to summon them and then you can only do so on a Power Level roll (equal or exceeding the plevel you need to summon the unit). Failing that; if you can't summon anything by the third battle round; then anything you have in the wings waiting to be summoned (that you paid for; in Matched Play at least) is automatically destroyed. For an army that was pure Deep Strike in the past, this is a massive reversal imo and is frankly a horrible rule in Matched Play scenarios (which is likely going to be the main mode of play).

The reason why I don't think Tzeentch has survived that well is the restriction on casting psychic powers more than once in Matched Play. That is to say; pass or fail you can only cast a power once other than Smite. In my opinion; this is stupid. Considering that for the moment they have massively cut down on psychic powers to begin with; if they make psychic powers with the same love and care they have making the new datasheets; then obviously broken powers like 7th ed Invisibility shouldn't exist. Pink Horrors breaking up into Blue Horrors breaking up into Brimstone Horrors must be bought for using your army points and while it's true that Pink HOrrors can cast Smite (and unlike other unit champions don't use a weakened version of it) they can only do so on a 5+... on a D6. That's isn't very likely then. On the plus side they share in a 4+ Invulnerable save like all Tzeentch Daemons (except Kairos) and they all have an Assault 2 S3 18" lasgun so yay?

Other than Tzeentch though; I like the daemons in general. Unit caps for the core troops (letters; pinkies; daemonettes, plaguebearers) have all been increased to 30 man units and there is synergy with Heralds and Greater Daemons due to Aura bonuses that imo helps make it more cohesive. Daemonette's are positively brutal as are Bloodletters and Nurgle is very resilient (Disgustingly so!).

With the new CAD options you can build any Daemon force you really want too (as Objective Secured is no longer a thing); and because the cores are all cores you are still encouraged to make combined force armies... or you can be a total fluff bunny and stick to a particular allegiance. You could easily take say Karanak and an army full of Flesh Hounds if you wanted, or a herald and all Soul Grinders. It's really up to you now (and this is all in Battle Forged armies)

In short; I think 8th is the perfect time to start an army that you really want too, as the new CADs really offer you that amazing flexibility.

On a personal note; can I just say that I love the new Greater Daemons. With the amount of wounds they have and the amount of killiness they have your opponent will likely have to throw a lot of dedicated anti-tank at them to kill them. They are not the sort of 'after thought' to deal with them like they are at the moment. Even force weapons are not guaranteed to swiftly deal with them only because Instant Death isn't a thing.
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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Marandamir
Bloodcrusher
Marandamir
Bloodcrusher
Joined: 29 Jul 2011, 22:26

05 Jun 2017, 22:13 #4

I've found pics of all the indexes and played a mono khorne demon list against a nid list over this past weekend using the new rules. alot has changed.

First I'll comment that summoning is actually awesome. Any chaos unit can perform the ritual and while you do pay points for the units it still keys off power level. 10 bletters is 5 pts, skull taker is 5 pts, a herald on a jugger is 8 pts, etc. You simply need to roll > the power level to summon that unit and the options don't change the power level. Summoned stuff shows up within 12" and simply needs to be > 9" away from enemies when they arrive (with no scatter!). Other than that, they can shoot AND assault. This means that you allocate a selection of your army into raw customized points that you can then use as you need in game. basic units are easy to get and huge units like bloodthirsters are pretty much impossible. But the sheer flexibility is huge.

The second factor is the game is now about character buffs. a herald gives +1 str to khorne units within 6". This buff stacks, so you take 3 heralds and park them near a unit of hounds and now your hound unit is Str 8 in assault. You see why demonic summoning is cool? You need buffs you can drop a herald near an assault and get a bonus. You want to ninja assault something? Drop a sizable unit of bletters or hounds with a instrument 9" away from an enemy and all you need is an 8" assault roll to get into combat the turn you arrive.

There is a ton of reviews on stuff online but my initial feel is the new AP system is rough. Bolters and base guns have 0 ap value but most guns people take will have solid penalties to your armor save. So even if you have a T7 bloodthirster with a 3+ save, you'll find yourself taking the 5++ invuln most of the time and eating wounds left and right. The wound system is neat but they did t-bag some stuff that I wasn't happy about. Bloodthirsters get seriously nerfed on WS and attacks the more hurt they get. All the while demon princes don't give a hoot how hurt they are and they hit on 2+ all day long. It's frustrating, but its the new world. Death guard kinda suck save for their new gun. I heard they get better with the new codex that will be out sometime I hope this year.

The tourney peeps say that all assault armies are viable in this edition but I got stomped by nids as he took a mix of shooting and assault. A unit of 30 devil gaunts shot 90 Str 4 shots at a 6 man unit of bloodcrushers and wiped it off the board. So shooting is very strong in this edition. Assault is crazy deadly but you gotta finese assault more. Outside of charges, you alternate which units make all their attacks. So getting the charge off is very important but it is also matters which order you pick your units to swing. There is a 2 pt strategem that allows your opponent to interrupt and have one of his units swing after one of yours did. This is huge as you now may have to decide which unit of yours is more important. I had a rage thirster assault a flying hive tyrant and a 20 man hound unit charge a big unit of genestealers. I had to pick which unit I wanted to swing first knowing that the other unit would swing next. It was kinda scary.

All in all I like the new edition alot. Though I heard that playing mono-god or even mono-demon may be problematic in matched play. It seems you need to mix CSM units and demon units together to really play well in this edition :(
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: 13 Jun 2011, 10:26

07 Jun 2017, 12:30 #5

Only characters can summon in units, not any unit can do so. If you're using Daemonic Ritual anyway (as far as I know there are no other summoning options).
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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gjnoronh
*Custom Title*
gjnoronh
*Custom Title*
Joined: 08 Feb 2005, 16:29

07 Jun 2017, 13:17 #6

Super excited for the first time in a long time about 40K (last I played was 3rd or 4th edition i think)
Are we in a golden Age of Fantasy? Check this out
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/07/ ... n-age.html
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Nicolos
Daemonette
Nicolos
Daemonette
Joined: 07 Apr 2013, 06:47

08 Jun 2017, 11:10 #7

be'lakor sounds like a "fun" model to take as he is -5 ap in combat and more importantly all enemies within 12 subtract 1 from their leadership. reroll 1 and so can units within "6". can two power or deny in the enemy turn.

Hearlds seem good idea to take aswell

nurgling can deploy within 9 of the enemy but they don't have anything to take out tanks but they could at least hold something in combat. not sure how well that will would as a few things can retreat out of combat now.
Nurgle is my god.
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: 13 Jun 2011, 10:26

11 Jun 2017, 07:51 #8

I don't think Be'lakor really has a place at the moment in a Chaos Daemons force. Although he will be golden in a Heretic one. I agree that herald's are awesome though. Especially supporting Greater Daemons; although it's going to be tricky keeping them close enough to support each other (and still make them immune to ranged attacks)

The vibe I'm getting with Daemons is that they'll play a lot like Daemons in WFB in it's 7th and 8th ed versions, with Nurglings the scouting skirmishers (and yet amusingly enough; Flesh Hounds not being able to do so; despite being Khorne's ambushing/vanguard unit).

I like that Slaanesh gets some needed ranged options with the chariots although very short ranged. On the plus side though you measure anywhere from the model so I guess you could 'cheat' a couple of inches. Hellflayers look very worthwhile in taking since they get +D6 S8 AP-1 D2 attacks with the axle's. By rights that would make Terminator's worried; but only ever so slightly since it's -1.

Of course; they're 'only' 6 Wounds and can only be in units of 1 though, so maybe they'll go down somewhat quickly regardless. Then again I do think they are sort of that fine line between a little two tough for small arms fire to be entrusted with in sorting it out; but not quite the threat that you should pour anti-tank into it so that in itself is interesting. Your enemy probably wouldn't want to deal with it in close combat either due to all the going first shenanigans that Slaanesh plays with.
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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gjnoronh
*Custom Title*
gjnoronh
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Joined: 08 Feb 2005, 16:29

12 Jun 2017, 16:21 #9

Why do you feel Belakor doesn't have a place in a Daemon force? Not arguing I just don't have enough background context to understand your role differentiation between Heretic forces and Daemonic ones.
Are we in a golden Age of Fantasy? Check this out
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/07/ ... n-age.html
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Marandamir
Bloodcrusher
Marandamir
Bloodcrusher
Joined: 29 Jul 2011, 22:26

12 Jun 2017, 17:10 #10

I'm still wrapping my head around demons. We went from an army that could deep strike everything to an army that can deep strike nearly nothing. Instead I believe you are expected to use the demon summoning rules instead, which I think is a weak replacement. Sure you can take somewhat cheaper infantry but it gets shot off the board now that it doesn't have deep strike :( I played a 6 man unit of bloodcrushers and it got wiped out in a single round by 30 devilgaunts (that's 90 S4 shots!). how are you going to get dedicated assault units like that into assault when you gotta hoof it across the board? They even nerfed alot of the khorne movement. Hounds are only 10" now and cannot scout, bloodcrushers are cavalry and are only 8" movement now (and they got a point increase, wtf?).

The amazing units now are fiends (they are faster, get tons of rending attacks, and prevent fall back from non-flying units). flamers seem pretty hoss with flamer pistols. The tzeentch casters are all amazing as mortal wounds are DA BOMB. I also think plaguebearers got kinda amazing. They are cheaper, are S4,T4 with 5+ FNP and if you take them in 20+ units you get -1 to hit them. This is a pretty strong effect as it makes them more durable to shooting attacks and great objective holders. Plus at S4 your are wounding alot of stuff on 5s and with plagueswords rerolling wounds you can actually deal out some damage (even better with a STR buffing herald nearby).

The greater demons i'm still mixed on. I do like their leadership buff combo'd with demonic icons. I would have prefered autopassing morale but I guess getting LD 10 lets you soak 4 casualties a turn without worrying about losing more models to morale all while getting the chance of procing the icon and gaining some lost models back.

I'm pretty peaved that kairos only grants d3 command points while gulliman grants a flat 3. I mean kairos has litterally seen the freaking future, he should be a better warlord than that invalid gulliman :P Also, why does he not have the ephermeral form rule? he's a tzeentch demon. I think that is a typo.

I'm pretty miffed about the soul grinder as well. it was an AMAZING model and unit in 7th and they nerfed the jesus out of it. It has 2 heavy weapons and no protection against moving and shooting heavy weapons. It still has a base BS of 4+ but now it gets nerfed to 5+ as it gets wounded, so it now basically an assault vehicle with inaccurate guns. It even lost its STR 10 gun and its torrent flamer >:<

Screamers did get a movement buff which is good and their tail swipe now inflicts mortal wounds but procs only a 6 which means it will rarely hurt much at all. It's WS of 4+ means it's single warp jaw attacks are also nerfed since half will miss when they used to hit on 3s, all why retaining the single attack restriction per model. The buff to S6 was nice though. It still wounds tanks on 5s so it's a small concession and even terminators will still get a 4+ sv against it when before they got nuttin :(

I'm pretty annoyed but also intrigued with horror units as well. The pink horror shooting attack is trash (yeah, twin lasguns!) and the nerf to their casting roll of smite it means they are fairly ineffective. The flip side though is they still do D3 mortal wounds with smite and with brimestone horrors only costing 2pt each it could mean you can spam horror units to cast smite. You can field 10 units of 20 brimestone horrors for less than 500 pts and that would yield about 3 successful smites each turn and alot of 4+ invuln saves to shoot through. You don't have any guns so falling back out of assault is no biggie since smite is not hindered by falling back. So that may be worth a test.

I will admit though that CSM are pretty decent. land raiders are nearly 400 pts but they are freaking good. 4 las cannon shots paired with abaddon's reroll to hit is awesome :P I was nuking a vehicle a turn with the LR and it was able to ferry 9 khorne berserkers and kharn the betrayer up the field. I tried abaddon with 2 forgefiends as well and that was very nice shooting 16 S8 ap-2 and 2 damage shots a turn while rerolling missing. The only kicker was they are heavy guns and if you need to move/shoot yer hitting on 5s :(
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Marandamir
Bloodcrusher
Marandamir
Bloodcrusher
Joined: 29 Jul 2011, 22:26

12 Jun 2017, 17:25 #11

Oh, some tactical observations from my last game:

- keep everyone out of LOS or in cover. If one model is not in cover the whole unit isn't. Also, if you can shoot a single model and net lots of wounds they can kill models out of LOS.

- berserkers and kharne look amazing on paper with their double fight activations, but the fight activation order is very important. Strategems can interrupt their second activation and kill off berserkers or kharn before they can swing again.

- kharn is kinda a poor man's abaddon. He lets world eaters reroll failed hits within 1". This may seem like its reserved for assault but he could stand between 2 'world eater' land raiders and they get rerolls as long as he's 1" away. Same with forgefiends or havocs for that matter. Abaddon does it way better with this 6" radius but don't forget about good ol kharne :P

- character sniping is a thing and I don't mean with sniper rifles. watch where your enemies park their characters and use deep strike or movement shinanigans to get close to them and unload into them. I killed celestine (the first time) with some scarab occult terminators that dropped out of nowhere simply because she was like 1/4" ahead of another unit, making her the closest and targetable. Apparently, helldrakes are amazing at this as well as they get like 30" move and they don't have the supersonic restrictions so they can just wipe behind enemies and park next to characters and open fire.

- smite is a really good power. Mortal wounds are just a game changer and all those high toughness and good save durable units just eat mortal wounds to the face. I only had a the sergent psykers in the rubric marine and scarab terminator unit which have nerfed smite but it was still dishing out wounds for almost no effort. I think legit psykers that cast real smite would be very powerful in this game.

- MSU units aren't always the best choice anymore. Objective holding now is based off model count within 3" of objectives so sure you can drop 5 CSM on a objective to claim it but if 6 gretchin run up on the last turn and they'll steal it. Same with buff single units like knights. 2 gretchin or cultists or marines will steal an objective from a a knight :P
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: 13 Jun 2011, 10:26

13 Jun 2017, 01:17 #12

gjnoronh @ Jun 12 2017, 11:21 AM wrote: Why do you feel Belakor doesn't have a place in a Daemon force? Not arguing I just don't have enough background context to understand your role differentiation between Heretic forces and Daemonic ones.
Sure. It's because Be'lakor's buffs are limited. Yes, he does have the Prince of Chaos rule that'll affect other Daemon units (but that's no different from the other Daemon Prince of Chaos flavours), but his psychic abilities are drawn from the Heretic Astartes spell school, in which two of the three abilities only affect Heretic's (and they're powerful buffs at that). It doesn't even affect Be'lakor himself because he does not have the Heretic astartes keyword either.
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: 13 Jun 2011, 10:26

13 Jun 2017, 01:44 #13

Marandamir @ Jun 12 2017, 12:10 PM wrote: I'm still wrapping my head around demons.
I think the biggest thing to remember is that we're a 'survivable' horde army. I think in 8th this is even more apparent than ever (a minor thing to note I guess is that bloodletter's and plaguebearers are a whole point cheaper, pink horrors are more expensive and daemonette's are the same). These core's can be fielded in units of 30 now rather than 20 too.

Auto-passing morale would be horrible imo. One is that rolls of 1 mean that model(s) return. Autopassing would mean you don't get this flexibility. Besides; auto-passing is a command strategem, so you'd just be double upping on this. In sigmar; I average one roll of models returning to a unit per game; and frankly this minor thing is a joy to behold, especially the look on your opponents face when the unit he thought was destroyed... isn't.

I like the Greater Daemons in general. I still think they're stop gapped at the moment because they're still limited by the older sculpts, although that could be the relentless optimist in me. I do think though that Greater Daemons should be a monster that doesn't get crippled with injuries simply because it isn't alive and is basically manifested warp stuff, but whatever. As to Kairos not having Epheremal Form; I actually think it makes a certain amount of sense - he can't see the present; he can only see the future and the past. The jarring thing of course is that Kairos in almost every incarnation before has better protection. I will say though that in general a Greater Daemon is much harder for the opponent to deal with than in the past and even Force Weapons isn't going to just deal with one 'out of hand' if only because Instant Death is no longer a thing! All Greater Daemon variants are brutal up close (even Kairos), and can quickly kill even Terminators ("even Terminators"; what a great thing to say!) etc.

All Daemon Princes have become a lot more powerful too.

As to Tzeentch though; I think you'll find Screamers have pretty much stayed around the same in the long run. Screamers no longer have to trade all their attacks for their warp jaw, and while they only proc that movement thing on a 6, it *is* a mortal wound which bypasses all protection. As for the Pink HOrrors, I'm quite undecided myself. I initially thought them to be rubbish, but after playing around with them a bit I don't quite think that anymore. They do have the ability to smite (which is the D3 version) albeit difficulty but they can still spam out the shots with an Assault 2 18" weapon S3 weapon. That isn't all that bad imo, especially since they have a 4+ invulnerable save to boot. The fact that you do have to pay on top for their 'defining feature' (aka; split) is just one more thing that I think is rubbish and is the problem of empowering tournament organizers to have too much influence in game design.

I think the biggest loser in this ravening hordes book is Nurgle. Yes they're tough to shift, but short of their Daemon Princes or Greater Daemon; they also can't shift anything else either. Their killing power is frankly trash imo.

I'm greatly looking forward to Slaanesh; they've got the speed and subtle power about them that I think is going to greatly reward finesse.
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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Marandamir
Bloodcrusher
Marandamir
Bloodcrusher
Joined: 29 Jul 2011, 22:26

21 Jun 2017, 20:04 #14

After reading some more into the indexes I think yer pretty much right. My initial attempt at a mono-khorne demon army still left me with a sour taste in my mouth. All the playtesters say that assault only armies are viable, but I don't necessarily agree with that at all. I had 6 bloodcrushers shot to death by gaunts and they are the more durable of the khorne units. So in the end I still think you need to understand yer opponents capabilities and also just understand that alpha striking from reserve is just the new 'thing' and you'll lose entire units from threats that were not even on the board the turn before (Ok, so my pyrovoires drop pod in and triple flamer your critical unit from 9.01" away....). It's part of the game now and you just need to roll with the punches.

I'm mixed on nurgle. I think mono-demon nurgle is indeed weaksauce offensively. However, I also got to see a number of bolters ding a few wounds on a land raider as well. So maybe nurgle can offset their wet noodle style attacks with just a weight of attacks that when combined with their various rerolls to wound they get can net enough wounds to cause some damage. I dunno. Either that or you just combine them with CSM or tzeentch and do damage at range while pressuring with the nurgle assault stuff.
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: 13 Jun 2011, 10:26

22 Jun 2017, 07:58 #15

It's just crazy imo to think of Daemons at the moment as being their 7th or 8th ed fantasy incarnation (no Deep Striking etc) rather than the Chaos Daemons we know and love... I can only hope that when we get our dex, it'll have Deep Strike options, as at the moment -- I think we're about the only one that can't do it (other than Orks?). At the moment I've been playing Slaanesh pretty much exclusively and while I can't Deep Strike; I'm still able to get turn 1 charges (Seekers are ridiculous between a 14" move + D6+1 advance + 2D6+1" charge). I'm finding Daemonette's to be very killy even with -1 AP, so I should imagine Bloodletter's will be scary as hell.

Actually about that. I think that in general our armies will have to be fielded in the larger sizes. That's because we have no transport options (and no; we can't use CSM transports either; because Chaos Daemons don't have the <LEGION> keyword). Alternatively, you could minimally deploy with your characters out of LoS and sacrifice a turn or two to Daemonic Ritual? Although frankly I hate that mechanic so much. At least with Daemonic Ritual we don't have to actually 'declare' what we're summoning before we roll the dice. We just roll em and see what happens.

Also; Slaanesh Chariots are pretty amazeballs. Including the Hellflayers.
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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