Big faq 2

Marandamir
Bloodcrusher
Marandamir
Bloodcrusher
Joined: 10:26 PM - Jul 29, 2011

9:17 PM - Oct 01, 2018 #1

As many are aware, big faq 2 dropped this past friday and nerfed our demon armies.  If you aren't aware of the changes there are a couple that affect us pretty heavily:
  1. Warp surge was nerfed to cap at a 4++ save (used to cap at 3++).
  2. Fly units now measure vertical distances when moving vertically
  3. Fly units only get to move over models and terrain in the movement phase.  Charges, pile ins, and consolidates cannot move over models or terrain.
I'm not sure what drove  the warp surge nerf.  Getting a 3++ is by no means game breaking, especially when the stratagem itself eliminated the ability to reroll those improved saves.  I don't play in tournaments and my primary use for it was to help protect tzeentch units like horrrors.  Other combos was to get a 4++ save on a bloodthirster and use this to help keep him alive.  Now it's useless for tzeentch demons (they got a 4++ anyway) and overall becomes way less effective.  So in my opinion this was unwarranted (and stupid) nerf.

#2 above was a fine change to fly.  What people were abusing here is they would deep strike fly units onto platforms that were 9"+ away from enemy models vertically, but horizontally were 0"-2".  This was 'legal' since you ignored vertical distances and could easily make a 2" charge.  Obviously, this was a STUPID abuse by WAAC players and I'm fine with the errata.

#3 above those really irks me.  This change to fly was again due to fly unit abuse, specifically the slam captains that were going around the tourney scene.  Slam captains were just jet pack captains with big melee weapons that used stratagems heavily to become pretty bad ass beat sticks in close combat.  I believe eldar shining spears were also used heavily and contributed to the abuse of the fly keyword.  However, what this means now is EVERY fly unit got hit with the nerf bat and this GREATLY nerfs close combat armies that were not abusive and actually needed the fly rules to remain competitive.  Take khorne demons for example.  Khorne is really good at offense but does not have resiliency.  So most units only got into assault maybe once or twice if you were lucky.  Most units did not have fly and required assaulting the various screener units used to bubble wrap juicy targets.  The units with fly though are expensive and needed to get over the screener units and kill priority targets and quickly enough to prevent them from decimating you.  This is now gone.  You cannot jump over your own models or enemy models with demon princes or blood thirsters during a charge.  So those units now find it harder to get into assault and are forced now to eat more shooting before they can naturally get into grips with better targets.

So long story short is while the big faq did fix some cheeses like the CP farming garbage and vertical movement idiocy, it overall sucked for demon players.  I'm hoping the next chapter approved with lower some point costs on the nerfed fly models but I don't think GW even considers the collateral damage of their overarcing nerfs.  I intend to email the faq feedback group to share my displeasure with the nerfs.  I recommend you do the same: (40kFAQ@gwplc.com)
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: 10:26 AM - Jun 13, 2011

8:06 AM - Oct 12, 2018 #2

The 3++ wasn't the issue. The issue was that it was possible to get an effective 2++ with some Tzeentch Daemons? How? Lord of Change with Impossible robe (4++) gets Warp Surged (3++), but the Daemon of Tzeentch trait says +1 to your invulnerable saving throws, so if you roll a 2 on that D6, the trait kicks in.

The fly charge change was something kinda necessary. But how they implemented it I think was a bit substandard. The issue was that how it was it meant 0" charges for units that were above or below the charging unit. Perhaps a better solution was that in those cases you add 3" to the charge or something. Not being able to skip over units limits assault even more than it was already. How many assault squads do you see in a competitive setting as it is?

Imo the only thing that came out of the FAQ that was good was two things: the wholesale nerfing of CP farming and the fact that they nerfed deep striking in general on turn 1. I still think this is a bit daft though, I liked when 8th came out because melee was suddenly a good possibility, now there's a lot of constraints upon that.
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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Marandamir
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Marandamir
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Joined: 10:26 PM - Jul 29, 2011

6:39 PM - Oct 12, 2018 #3

lol, I've always been playing it that warp surge was no better than a 3++ no matter how many effects the model had.  Regardless, the nerf to warp surge is idiotic.  They created a stacking issue they didn't want so instead of simply preventing the stacking, they nerf the strategem wholesale so that models that never could abuse it get nerfed as well.  I'm glad that GW is responding to issues but I sometimes forget they make bone headed rules and rulings.

Deep striking turn 1 wasn't an issue with the deploy zone restriction so I don't now what warranted pushing it off until turn 2.  I didn't like the confusion it caused though with summoning and powers that teleport already deployed units via deep strike, so I guess i'm happy as now there isn't anything blocking where I summon demons too, espectially with character renegade knights :P

The CP farm nerf and the silliness of 0" assaults was a positive fix.  I just wish they didn't globally nerf stuff when they try to fix isolated occurances.  It's just lazy design.
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: 10:26 AM - Jun 13, 2011

10:41 PM - Oct 12, 2018 #4

The deep strike thing was an issue when assault armies couldn't be offensive, but there was nothing stopping an Eldar player for example deep striking their 3 Fire prism's in their own zone and immediately open up, completely free from risk. It's not even being tactical really, it's just... obvious? The Deep strike change limiting that was an attempt to make some sort of commonality to it, with it equally nerfing both gunlines and assault.

I still think Denizens of the Warp should be free from this restriction, we do spend CP doing it in any army with no (inherent) CP farming mechanics. Off the top of my head, the only CP farming the Chaos faction even has is the Tallyband guy from DG.

In regards to the warp surge stupidity change, my personal opinion is that they should just change the Tzeentch Daemon trait entirely. Ephemeral Form is boring and just plainly mathematically superior. That's why you see Tzeentch dominate in tournament showings. How many Khorne or hell Slaanesh armies do you see showing up? (Nurgle does though, but they're mainly soup armies with DG).

I did hear a rumour though that Daemons will get some new rules. I think the rumour was in connection with the Wrath and Rapture stuff. Hopefully though, they'll look at Greater Daemons in general and 'make them great again', hopefully in Chapter Approved. It's preposterous that you could drop each Greater Daemon by 100 points and you'd still be better off with a Daemon Prince.
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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Marandamir
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Marandamir
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Joined: 10:26 PM - Jul 29, 2011

5:13 AM - Oct 13, 2018 #5

denizens of the warp was basically a 'screw you' to demons.  Demons have ALWAYS been able to deep strike.  Hell, in 5th ed it was mandatory to deep strike your entire army.  Now they charge us CPs to deep strike units?  pffft.  I'm fine with the restriction just give us our core theme back to our army and stop nickle and dime'n us for crap other armies do for free.  I don't think CP farming was really a thing for us.  The tallyband guy and a relic from 1k sons I think could generate some but that wasn't nuttin compared to grand stratagist and the aquilla combo.

I don't really think the tzeentch trait is boring.  durability is huge in 40k and both that and disgustingly resilient help get that.  Khorne's trait is pretty good if you can get to grips but it would be nice if they just had the bonus permanently and not just round 1.  slaneesh is just the bottom of the barrel now though.  I've looked at them and they are just not any good.  I hope they get updated soon cuz they need some help.

I'm 100% with you on greater demons being suck right now.  I doubt we'll get adjusted much in december.  GW doesn't ever fix really crap units, they just crap on good units.
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FeeZ
Greater Daemon
FeeZ
Greater Daemon
Joined: 10:26 AM - Jun 13, 2011

9:23 PM - Yesterday #6

Slaanesh isn't all that bad honestly, you just need to be super offensive, even in objective games. Wrap enemy models so units can't fall back, as Slaanesh is safest in combat between Always Strikes First and potential Aura of Acquiescence use. Make use of Seekers and possibly Fiends, but not many people I know actually have Fiends, so that could be an issue. Slaanesh units other than the Daemonette are imo slightly overcosted. I don't think Seekers should cost as much as a Space Marine, and imo there is no way a Fiend is worth 46 points each (but having said that, they always perform very well when I use them), so they probably could go down to say 38 points.

I agree that durability isn't a bad thing, but Tzeentch is the only thing that is 'always on', even Nurgle's changes due to the type of damage received. Tzeentch doesn't really require much thought as such. A better solution would be something that aids psyker's in some way, but makes use of other Tzeentch models (casting/denying from other Tzeentch daemons I think solves this), and *then* you could do stuff like change the aura trait of Greater Daemons (while actually making them useful) to be something useful; like +1 Invulnerable save to models wholly within range. And then possibly change Warp Surge back.
Special thanks to Kerrygan for the avatar pic!
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Marandamir
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Marandamir
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Joined: 10:26 PM - Jul 29, 2011

10:19 PM - Yesterday #7

I think slaneesh has potential with their speed.  I think their demon trait is weak compared to the other chaos gods simply because combat rarely lasts 2 rounds.  Either you kill them, they fall back, or they kill you.  It's why khorne's trait is still very good cuz it's very rarely not applicable.  The problem is the 'first strike' concept is tied with charging units and the active player breaks ties.  This means that when your opponent activates before you, the unit it attacks effectively has no demon trait (cuz it didn't get to strike first) and that makes it weak.  I do like demonettes alot as they are priced pretty cheap.  seekers are alot better with 2 wounds but you need them in mass and most people don't own that many.  Fiends I agree are overpriced but blocking fallback from enemies is a very strong ability.  I seen tourney style lists that use skarbrand simply for his version of it.  I know fiends don't work on fly units but you know that going in and can deploy and adjust accordingly to ensure you get into combat with the right targets.  I just wish the keeper of secrets didn't suck nads.  His aura is trash, his offense is mediocre, and with 12 wounds he will just die to shooting before he does anything.  Yeah, he totally needs a rewrite along with the other greater demons.
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