Maintaining Kemalist fascism

Nikephoros
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Nikephoros
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Joined: 9:41 PM - Sep 16, 2006

4:00 AM - Jul 25, 2007 #1

If you try to argue with Turks on the internet about history, politics or national issues you learn very quick you are not dealing with a nation thinking for themselves. What most of them do is only repeat their official state ideology.

The Greek government needs to put millions of Euros each year to nail the Kemalist official ideology in Germany, USA, Britain. If the Turkish state wants to make claims against Greek history and territory let the rest of the world know some of the below facts(enough meetings of Greek delegations in front of portraits of Kemal too) :

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http://www.book-fair.com/en/index.php?c ... ntent.html
"Banned Books 2000–2005: 284
The ban has been abolished for 47 titles..
Source: Turkish Publishers’ Association Freedom of Publishing Report (June 2006)"
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http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_arti ... Valider=OK
"At least 65 people, including many journalists and writers, have been prosecuted under article 301 of the new criminal code introduced on 1 June 2005. The article, headed “Denigration of Turkishness, the republic and state organs and institutions,” provides for between six months and three years in prison for “anyone who openly denigrates the government, judicial institutions or military or police structures.”"
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http://www.bianet.org/2006/11/01_eng/news92579.htm

"These practices are simply pristine and totally unlawful, says Kıvanç Eliaçık from the new Students' Union Initiative, commenting on the increasing number of administrative inquisitions towards dissident students at universities around the country.

...

"Protestation without permission", "chanting slogans", "participating in press conference" are grounds according to the university rectorate for disciplinary action.

In the last four months 72 inquisitions had been placed and seven students who reacted against the yearly tuition had been punished."
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KOKORO
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KOKORO
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10:30 AM - Jul 25, 2007 #2

What is wrong with Kemalist Ýdolgy !

it is a quite a good one.

Secularist independant country which is called Turkey !
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Nikephoros
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Nikephoros
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12:42 PM - Jul 25, 2007 #3

I think the above shows what is wrong...

No one can criticize in universities, books or as a journalist, the official ideology without serious problems.
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KOKORO
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KOKORO
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1:45 PM - Jul 25, 2007 #4

you can critize .

even now our prime minister is a person who has been perisoned becasue of a poem he read.

but now he is a primeminister.

our some universities are universty . some arent !!

and sometings are ilagal to say .

lets seperate turkey in two pieces and lets work on it. you cant. every counrty must defence it self.

can you say that greete must be separeted from greece and must be free.
and i will fork for it and die for it.

if you say this in athen in front of every body no body would react ??
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Nikephoros
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Nikephoros
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7:40 PM - Jul 25, 2007 #5

1)Banning 284 books from 2000-2005
2)prosecuting 65 journalists and writers since 1 June 2005 till when the RSF annual report on Turkey was written
3)systematically targetting dissident students

That is not really allowing criticism or freedom of speech. The above explain how the official Turkish state ideology is maintained.

Even Turkey takes great steps to maintain its official ideology abroad:

So that in the USA Kemalist official history can be taught:
"The Institute of Turkish Studies, Inc., located in Washington, D.C., was established in 1982 with a grant of three million dollars from the Republic of Turkey. [16] Information about its current finances is not readily available, but in 1989 it had expenditures of $264,593, of which $121,062 was for grants. That year it received gifts of nearly $240,000. The sources of the gifts are unknown to us, but in the past much of its financial support has come from American corporations that sell military equipment to the Turkish government. In 1992 the Institute began a fund-raising campaign to double its endowment to six million dollars, with funds to be raised from businesses in America and Turkey."
http://www.ids.net/~gregan/ethics.html
A nice stipulation from the Turkish state so Turks in Germany, Netherlands, etc. have the right to criticize their host country, but if they want dual citizienship try not to criticize Turkey(insult Turkishness or publicly denigrate state institutions)
3. In cases where denigration of Turkishness is committed by a Turkish citizen in another country the punishment shall be increased by one third.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/EN ... of=ENG-2U5
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Thermopyles
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Thermopyles
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4:44 AM - Jul 26, 2007 #6

Kokoro, in Greece you can say anything you want about anyone/anything you want. And it has been like this for ever. What you cannot say is clear lies, and claim them as true to denegrate someon/something for political or monetary gain, or to disfame someone. Ex. you CAN say Papandreaou is gay and likes young boys if you are a citizen - unless you were activly trying to do it for your own gain. if you are a politician and say it in a way where you are trying to get people to take you seriously so you can put him down, then that is illigal. Otherwise you can say whatever you want. We have newspaper that specialize in just that - and realy make fun of politicians, police, militare, church, and other things! Its called the "Pontiki" - the mouse. its hilarious!! :lol:

To think that you can be arrested for expressing any view you wish - nomatter what - is pretty medival IMHO...
"If you act as you think, the missing link - Synchronicity"

-Pan Metron Ariston
(All in Measure is Perfection/Excellency)


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KOKORO
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KOKORO
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5:57 AM - Jul 27, 2007 #7



this is how we make fun of our president !
and he sew the comýc book . and high court decided that . u can be a president so so can be make fun of . !! no problem. ;)

we have a word in turkish (animal world). for rude people .
and this says tayip world
and make him in to 7 difrent animals.

;)
only insulting our nation is forbiden. not critizing.
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D.E.A
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D.E.A
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4:26 PM - Jul 27, 2007 #8

If one read some posts,comments or whatever.Wherever he'll get the idea that he is not talking with normal people...He'll get the idea that he is talking with state correspondands or... an AI... I mean turkish point of view is like a copy paste all over the net media blah blah blah...
Come back with your shield or upon it.
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Lord
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Lord
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8:29 PM - Jul 27, 2007 #9

Somehow in a weird art of way...
I envy the Turks for this...
You know what i mean...

They are maybe hungry (sort of saying) but there national feelings stays allways high...
They dont take shit from know one in matters of National feelings etc etc...
we?..we are even have discussion about matters which we shouldnt have...

Ok i admit...you cant have often have a dialoque officially with Turks especially in the Net...(But if you speak with Turks private...they do critisize very much there country...like all of us do...)
or if they know that you are on a logical level...they do also admit there mistakes and wrong views...
I dont know...
... And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."
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D.E.A
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D.E.A
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11:34 PM - Jul 27, 2007 #10

Lord @ Jul 27 2007, 10:29 PM wrote: Somehow in a weird art of way...
I envy the Turks for this...
You know what i mean...

They are maybe hungry (sort of saying) but there national feelings stays allways high...
They dont take shit from know one in matters of National feelings etc etc...
we?..we are even have discussion about matters which we shouldnt have...

Ok i admit...you cant have often have a dialoque officially with Turks especially in the Net...(But if you speak with Turks private...they do critisize very much there country...like all of us do...)
or if they know that you are on a logical level...they do also admit there mistakes and wrong views...
I dont know...
You would rather prefer an open democracy lord or a state in which you cant say anything opposing/defying the official state?
Come back with your shield or upon it.
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KOKORO
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KOKORO
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7:07 AM - Jul 28, 2007 #11

my friends world is changing .
we all change

after the last election s a pkk member is in the parliament .

an Akp member (ruling religious party ) said in the parliament that we dont need Kemalist idology in Turkey !( he perefers a islamist regime)

if we didnt have democracy could these be happened.
this too much democracy will lead us to dictatorship.
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Nikephoros
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Nikephoros
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10:29 AM - Jul 30, 2007 #12

Kokoro: That is funny because it proves my point. A Pkk member is in Parliament does any Kemalist Turk have any proof for that? Let me guess you got that from the ultra-nationalistic Turkish media and no one is gonna get punished for making such libelous accusations against Leyla Zana(my guess) since she is not a good Kemalist ideologue and struggles for Kurdish rights e instead of waiting for the crumbs of token tolerance of the official Turkish state ideology. What if I was a Turkish journalist and with the same lack of proof I called Buyukanit an Armenian sperm? It would not take long for article 301 to hit me, death threats, violent attacks from Turkish nationalist frenzied mobs, etc.

I think deep down you and every Turk knows this distinction of what article 301 is usually used against but Turks have to hide from the rest of the world such facts or else all the work to create a hugely false positive image of Turkey would be wasted.

Lord: What do you mean Turks admit their wrong views? All the years over the net only one Turk on all the dozens of military forums ever went against the official Kemalist state created portrayl of the FIR issue. There is an official state created ideology in Turkey and no Turk really can go against it without a backlash. I do not mean criticize, I mean to actually stand against their official state created positions on national issues. I mean for once a Turk to actually examine an issue for himself with some kind of research instead of defending their official state positions.
t didn't even occur to me that I would be abandoned by Sabanci University when I spoke out," Prof Berktay says. "In most Turkish state universities there is a stiff, straitjacketed, hierarchical approach to saying something perceived as being against the national interest, whatever that is, and in that framework it is virtually unthinkable to go against the conventional wisdom."
http://www.historynewsnetwork.com/round ... /8986.html
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KOKORO
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KOKORO
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2:50 PM - Jul 30, 2007 #13

my friend how can explain Kemalizm . it is nationazim but not fasizm.

the article 301 is one of the most strong part of our lesislative law.

basicly we cant humilate in a bad way of turkish nation. we dont let it.

we can make fun of everything president , prime minister army every thing religion , fasists even Atatürk . but we can make fun of it in a humorious way .
not insulting.

also this article represents not only being turkish. also protects other nations.


few moths ago
in istanbul a apartment the apartment manager ( jew ) and a apartment resident had afight( turkish )
and sudenly the turkýsh guy started to shout as turkey belongs to turks and jews out !. and the jew guy sew him for insulting a religiously way and win in the court in 3 case in 2 moths.


dont look at the laws in one way. look all. it protecs turks . also other nations and religions. if it didnt why would we still have all those churchs. even we had so much problem. ? or rich christian or jew groups in here.??

there are lots of things ýn books. but there are lots of things in reality too.
and dont forget if there werent Mustafa Kemal. there would be 1.300.000 Otoman greek to sent to greece . the number would be 300 .000 as Greece sent us.


stay well
Kaan
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D.E.A
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D.E.A
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8:41 PM - Jul 30, 2007 #14

KOKORO @ Jul 30 2007, 04:50 PM wrote: my friend how can explain Kemalizm . it is nationazim but not fasizm.

the article 301 is one of the most strong part of our lesislative law.

basicly we cant humilate in a bad way of turkish nation. we dont let it.

we can make fun of everything president , prime minister army every thing religion , fasists even Atatürk . but we can make fun of it in a humorious way .
not insulting.

also this article represents not only being turkish. also protects other nations.


few moths ago
in istanbul a apartment the apartment manager ( jew ) and a apartment resident had afight( turkish )
and sudenly the turkýsh guy started to shout as turkey belongs to turks and jews out !. and the jew guy sew him for insulting a religiously way and win in the court in 3 case in 2 moths.


dont look at the laws in one way. look all. it protecs turks . also other nations and religions. if it didnt why would we still have all those churchs. even we had so much problem. ? or rich christian or jew groups in here.??

there are lots of things ýn books. but there are lots of things in reality too.
and dont forget if there werent Mustafa Kemal. there would be 1.300.000 Otoman greek to sent to greece . the number would be 300 .000 as Greece sent us.


stay well
Kaan
My friend all these things are what democracy isn't :)
Come back with your shield or upon it.
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KOKORO
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KOKORO
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2:44 AM - Jul 31, 2007 #15

As we both dont have ;)
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