Concern Over Low Military Flights Over Western Adirondacks

Concern Over Low Military Flights Over Western Adirondacks

roger
roger

January 22nd, 2003, 2:48 pm #1

(January 20, 2003) — ALBANY — A New York Air National Guard proposal to expand training airspace in northern New York could mean fighter jets flying low over wilderness areas in the Adirondack Park, environmentalists said.

The New York Air National Guard’s 174th Fighter Wing, based at the Syracuse airport, and seven other Air National Guard units from Vermont to Maryland use Fort Drum and airspace over the nearby Adirondacks for training. Most low-level flight training has been concentrated in areas of the park covered by large tracts of commercial timber land.

Neil Woodworth, counsel for the Adirondack Mountain Club, said their study indicates the new plan would allow low-level flights, perhaps as low as 500 feet, over the Five Ponds wilderness in the west-central Adirondacks. Other wilderness areas may also be affected, he said.

More: Rochester Democrat and Chronicle
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Karl Heller
Karl Heller

January 22nd, 2003, 8:50 pm #2

My main concern is that someone will actually complain about low level flyovers, which are being accomplished in the name of training for a war that is all but imminent. Having just received my orders TODAY calling me to active service, I am intimately interested in these pilots being as well trained and efficient as they possibly can before arriving in theater to support us "ground pounders". Please try not to complain too much as those jets go whizzing by overhead when you are out walking around in the wilderness. I will thank you for your patience with this training program when I return.
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Top 1%'er
Top 1%'er

January 22nd, 2003, 9:34 pm #3

I'll complain as loud as I want, thank you, and let fools like you go off to fight this dirty little colonial war. Hey, I have a summer home up in the ADK's. I donated over 300g's to conservative causes in the pasted 2 years. You are damn right I am going to complain.

But remember, I'll stay safe and snug knowing there are a whole bunch of you "gi-rines" willing to die so I can live the life of luxury and ensure I have cheap gas for my SUV.

I'll complain and whine that I am not getting a big enough tax break this year. I'll complain and whine about those damn welfare cheats who are dragging down this economy. I'll complain and whine about whatever I goddamn want. And let the poor and the idealistic fight my wars for me.

Fight and die you brave young men. Fight and die in vain. For every Iraqi you kill you will convert 10 more men to the cause of Islamic Fundamentalism. But it is no worry of mine.

So fight and die, I say, and keep the world safe for my business interests.


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Dan R.
Dan R.

January 22nd, 2003, 10:08 pm #4

My main concern is that someone will actually complain about low level flyovers, which are being accomplished in the name of training for a war that is all but imminent. Having just received my orders TODAY calling me to active service, I am intimately interested in these pilots being as well trained and efficient as they possibly can before arriving in theater to support us "ground pounders". Please try not to complain too much as those jets go whizzing by overhead when you are out walking around in the wilderness. I will thank you for your patience with this training program when I return.
So who did the orders come down from... Exxon? Texaco? Mobile? Oh... the US govt. Have fun fighting for the fat cats oil.

Since you brought it up... I'll complain as loud and often as I want about jets wreaking havoc, goofy foreign policy, silly tax cut plans, etc... That is until the current regime implements martial law and removes our tongues (which might not be too far off!).
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Democracy Lost
Democracy Lost

January 22nd, 2003, 10:35 pm #5

Talking like that might get you labeled a terrorist. And you do know that suspected terrorists can be rounded up a kept indefinately without charges being brought and without allowing you the benefit of council.

Hmmmmm ... sounds like the kind of treatment you would get in Iraq for denouncing Sadaam. And we differ from them how ?
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Anonymous
Anonymous

January 22nd, 2003, 10:48 pm #6

My main concern is that someone will actually complain about low level flyovers, which are being accomplished in the name of training for a war that is all but imminent. Having just received my orders TODAY calling me to active service, I am intimately interested in these pilots being as well trained and efficient as they possibly can before arriving in theater to support us "ground pounders". Please try not to complain too much as those jets go whizzing by overhead when you are out walking around in the wilderness. I will thank you for your patience with this training program when I return.
To be taking my order from a deserter.

What did "W" do in the war daddy?

or for the lazy ...

Upon graduating from Yale, Bush applied for a position in the Texas National Guard, a coveted spot that required only part-time military duties at home, far from the battlefields of Vietnam. Bush was catapulted to the front of 500 other applicants after a friend of his father, then a wealthy Houston congressman, phoned the Speaker of the Texas House, according to the Boston Globe.

After completing training as a pilot, George W. Bush requested and immediately received a transfer to an Alabama National Guard unit in May, 1972. But Bush never showed up for duty there, according to the Alabama unit's commander and the commander's assistant, who were interviewed by the Boston Globe.

Military records show that Bush's two commanding officers back in Texas reported George W. did not show up for duty there either for a year, and that they believed he had been transferred to Alabama. Meanwhile, when Bush failed to take his required annual medical exam in August, 1972, his pilot status was removed.

It should be noted that reporting for military duty is not something that's optional, particularly during a war. Those caught shirking National Guard duties were usually punished by being drafted into the real army — the one that landed you in Vietman, where some 350 American soldiers were killed each week. But, despite more than a year absent from duty, nothing happened to the well-connected George W. Bush.

Favouritism is a sore point among those who actually went to war, including U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell. As Powell wrote in his autobiography: "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed ... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units ... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal ..."

You've got to marvel at Powell's anger management skills.
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Bush leagues
Bush leagues

January 22nd, 2003, 10:54 pm #7

Copy and paste this ... and mail it away !

Department of Defense
The Pentagon
Washington, D.C. 20301-1900


To whom it may concern:

Recently, I was made aware of allegations concerning several violations of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) by George W. Bush during the Vietnam War. The alleged acts include being Absent Without Leave (UCMJ Article 86) for a period of more than a year from his National Guard assignments in Texas and Alabama. According to the UCMJ, a person who is AWOL for more than 30 days with evidence of no intent to return to duty is guilty of Desertion. (UCMJ Article 85)

To understand the gravity of this offense, one need only read the section 4.9.5 e. of Article 85, which states that the maximum punishment for desertion in a time of war (3), is, "Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct". As far as I am aware, George W. Bush has never received any punishment for these alleged crimes, nor has he ever been charged.

When I read about these allegations in national media outlets including, but not limited to; The Boston Globe(1), The Washington Post(2), The Birmingham News(3), and The Dallas Morning News(4), I decided to call the Department of Defense to find out what the Statute of Limitations was for these crimes. I was informed that because of the nature of the crimes; deserting one's country during a time of war, that there is NO statute of limitations, and these crimes, if proven, can still be prosecuted today.

The purpose of this correspondence is to make a formal written complaint with circumstantial and documentary evidence of George W. Bush's violations of the UCMJ. Since he is the Commander in Chief of our armed forces, the details of his past service or lack thereof, are of particular interest to the American people.

DETAILS:

From May to November 1972, George W. Bush was living in Alabama working on the US senate campaign of Winton Blount and was required to attend drills with the Air National Guard unit in Montgomery, Alabama. There is no record that he attended any drills whatsoever. Additionally, General William Turnipseed (r) who was commander of the unit at that time has stated in interviews that he never saw Bush report for duty.

On September 5, 1972, Bush had requested permission to perform duty for September, October, and November at the 187th Tactical Recon Group in Montgomery. Permission was granted, and Bush was ordered to report to General William Turnipseed. In interviews, Turnipseed, and his administrative officer at the time, Kenneth K. Lott, have stated that they had no memory of Bush ever reporting.

Seven months later, at Ellington Air Force Base in Texas, Bush's two superior officers were unable to complete his annual evaluation covering the year from May 1, 1972 to April 30, 1973 because, "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of this report." Both superior officers, who are now dead, and also Ellington's top personnel officer at the time, mistakenly concluded that Bush served his final year of service in Alabama. Bush returned to live in Texas after the senatorial election in November, 1972, so this is obviously not true.

According to the records available from the National Guard, the period between May 1972 and May 1973 remains unaccounted for. George W. Bush himself has refused to answer questions about this period in his life, other than to state that he fulfilled all of his National Guard commitments. If this were true, why is there no record of him fulfilling these commitments at either of his posts in Texas or Alabama? Why is there not one commanding officer that can come forward and state unequivocally that Bush reported for duty?

If the allegations are true that Bush deserted his country during a time of war, this is one of the gravest offenses one can commit against their country, short of treason. This is why there is no Statute of Limitations concerning these crimes. My father served proudly as a field surgeon in Vietnam, and it distresses me greatly that a person could use his family's influence and power to not only avoid the draft for service, but then to not fulfill the duties that he was assigned in substitute for serving in Vietnam.

These crimes are not to be taken lightly, and I believe that all men and women who serve America proudly would be shocked that a soldier was allowed to abuse the system in the way that George W. Bush allegedly has. These charges warrant investigation, and until a satisfactory record of Bush's service is produced, I can only assume that Bush did indeed desert his country in a time of war.

I implore you to investigate these charges. In this time of war and talk of preemptive strikes against other countries, it would serve the American people greatly to know that our Commander in Chief did not run away from duty during Vietnam. If this man is to send other's husbands, wives, and children to die in a foreign land, we must make sure that he fulfilled his obligations and commitments to America before he demands that others do the same.



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Those who yell the loudest
Those who yell the loudest

January 22nd, 2003, 11:04 pm #8

(January 20, 2003) — ALBANY — A New York Air National Guard proposal to expand training airspace in northern New York could mean fighter jets flying low over wilderness areas in the Adirondack Park, environmentalists said.

The New York Air National Guard’s 174th Fighter Wing, based at the Syracuse airport, and seven other Air National Guard units from Vermont to Maryland use Fort Drum and airspace over the nearby Adirondacks for training. Most low-level flight training has been concentrated in areas of the park covered by large tracts of commercial timber land.

Neil Woodworth, counsel for the Adirondack Mountain Club, said their study indicates the new plan would allow low-level flights, perhaps as low as 500 feet, over the Five Ponds wilderness in the west-central Adirondacks. Other wilderness areas may also be affected, he said.

More: Rochester Democrat and Chronicle
Who served in the military
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Karl Heller
Karl Heller

January 24th, 2003, 5:27 pm #9

(January 20, 2003) — ALBANY — A New York Air National Guard proposal to expand training airspace in northern New York could mean fighter jets flying low over wilderness areas in the Adirondack Park, environmentalists said.

The New York Air National Guard’s 174th Fighter Wing, based at the Syracuse airport, and seven other Air National Guard units from Vermont to Maryland use Fort Drum and airspace over the nearby Adirondacks for training. Most low-level flight training has been concentrated in areas of the park covered by large tracts of commercial timber land.

Neil Woodworth, counsel for the Adirondack Mountain Club, said their study indicates the new plan would allow low-level flights, perhaps as low as 500 feet, over the Five Ponds wilderness in the west-central Adirondacks. Other wilderness areas may also be affected, he said.

More: Rochester Democrat and Chronicle
I have never previously thrown out a deliberate grenade (flame bait) into the forum, because I respect Roger and the sanctity of what he is attempting to accomplish herein. However, with only a few days remaining in the private sector before I step back into the military uniform on a permanent basis, I couldn't resist. I thought I would take this chance to disprove the theory that this is a conservative leaning forum as has been espoused by more than one poster over the last several months. With better than hoped for results, the liberal element showed up in force. Not one kind word of support for the individual or the cause in response to my posting.

Interesting how deluded some folks can be and continue to be in the face of real world threats. I suppose it will take a nuclear detonation in one of our cities (a la "Sum of All Fears") to get your attention at long last. Can there be any doubt that this is the direction in which the world is heading at this point in time? You'll certainly want the military out there kicking a little ass after that happens, won't you?

Well, God knows that I don't want to see it come to all of that. Believe what you will, but this is the service I have trained for and intend to provide our society. Ask yourself how much you have done lately for anyone, be it at the local food bank, the neighborhood Boy Scout troop, or as a volunteer on voting day. If you aren't providing any kind of service back to society in exchange for your freedoms you are simply a slug, not deserving of an opinion about how this country operates. The good news for you is that no matter how sluggish you actually are, your opinion will always count in this country.

...And for all that, God Bless the United States of America. See you all on the flip side. Heller, out.
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roger
roger

January 24th, 2003, 6:16 pm #10

Karl, your announcement of marching orders got burried in a strange thread.

It's certainly brings it home when "one of our own" is called up.

Your post prompted a Vietnam deja vu flashback where folks blamed the soldiers for carrying out the orders of the leaders.

I have my own opinions about the wisdom of our foreign policy, but that does not take away my respect for those on the frontline who have to actually carry it out.

God Speed, Karl. You are in my thoughts and prayers and I wish you return safely.
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