The Jews Didn't Believe So Why Should We?

The Jews Didn't Believe So Why Should We?

Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

March 3rd, 2012, 3:00 am #1

Good point I think. 1000 out of 7 or 8 million. Not to be controversial, but it makes you wonder about the Christian Zionists calling them "chosen", in light of these numbers.

The Jews Didn't Believe So Why Should We?

By John W. Loftus at 3/01/2012

The Jews of Jesus' day believed in Yahweh and that he performed miracles, and they knew their Old Testament prophecies, and yet the overwhelming majority of them did not believe Jesus was raised from the dead by Yahweh. The most plausible estimate of the first-century Jewish population comes from a census of the Roman Empire during the reign of Claudius (48 CE) that counted nearly 7 million Jews. If we add in the Jews outside the Roman Empire in places like Babylon, the total first century Jewish population could have been 8 million. It's estimated that there may have been as many as 2.5 million Jews in Palestine. By contrast, as Catholic New Testament scholar David C. Sim argues, "Throughout the first century the total number of Jews in the Christian movement probably never exceeded 1,000 and by the end of the century the Christian church was largely Gentile." (Link) Since the Jews didn't believe why should we? No really. Why should we?

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Arthur Dent
Arthur Dent

March 3rd, 2012, 3:14 am #2

It seems to work pretty well really.

But what works even better for certainty is seeing the evidence, people don't doubt then. For all the time and miracles Jesus is alleged to have spent and done, the evidence obviously didn't exist way back, even in his life, obviously his legend only grew in the retelling and the crusades.
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Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

March 3rd, 2012, 3:16 am #3

That of 7 or 8 million people of that group of tribes, a paltry one thousand believed. And of those 1000, I'd hazard to guess zero thought Jesus was God.
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Arthur Dent
Arthur Dent

March 3rd, 2012, 4:56 am #4

Even the obscure illusions got people killed for heresy back then, and maybe in the end, even Jesus big noted himself too much for his disciples comfort (judas), the authorities (i.e. pontius Pilate ) or the general public.

At his death he was just one more mad religious phoney, it took time for the legend to be written.

The world was not short of feckless, indolent Rabbis back then, neither is it now, we don't believe them these days either.

Perhaps the closest example would be L. Ron. Hubbard? He convinced more than a thousand in his time though, he outdid Jesus by a mile. His reward actually was on earth.

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Tim
Tim

March 3rd, 2012, 7:56 am #5

don't know what the Bible says.

Stupid airogent people.

And they deny what SCIENCE tells us.

Its called BONEHEAD.



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Joined: October 1st, 2006, 10:04 am

March 3rd, 2012, 12:15 pm #6

Even the obscure illusions got people killed for heresy back then, and maybe in the end, even Jesus big noted himself too much for his disciples comfort (judas), the authorities (i.e. pontius Pilate ) or the general public.

At his death he was just one more mad religious phoney, it took time for the legend to be written.

The world was not short of feckless, indolent Rabbis back then, neither is it now, we don't believe them these days either.

Perhaps the closest example would be L. Ron. Hubbard? He convinced more than a thousand in his time though, he outdid Jesus by a mile. His reward actually was on earth.
Judas may have not been anything like he has been portrayed in The Bible. Nor Jesus. Rememeber, Jesus and Judas were NOT Christians, and have never had a thing to do with Christianity which just used 'him'. From what I have read allegedly said by Yeshua, he preached nothing new. 'You only get to God through me' stuff, is obviously totally misunderstood, manipulated, agenda'd...

IF he was speaking of having a Christ / Cosmic Consciousness, this is a whole new ball gane, and I believe all great Messengers bring this message. NO favourites, message for ALL. No need for a specific religion or any religion. Consciousness is way above being just a religious THING. Religion cramps and imposes and reduces and imprisons, imo.

I can see no problem with a Spiritual Messenger who was crucified for whatever reasons and whose name was Jesus / yeshua. Nothing not to believe really. It was not a unique happening.

But anything can be gotten hold of and manipulated. This episode, imo, COULD have been such a thing.

It is obviously not everything that Yeshua ever shared has been noted and used. The guy would surely have had much more to say than the few paragraphs taking up a manipulated book.

Love
Jackie




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Joined: April 17th, 2006, 10:37 pm

March 3rd, 2012, 8:46 pm #7

Even the obscure illusions got people killed for heresy back then, and maybe in the end, even Jesus big noted himself too much for his disciples comfort (judas), the authorities (i.e. pontius Pilate ) or the general public.

At his death he was just one more mad religious phoney, it took time for the legend to be written.

The world was not short of feckless, indolent Rabbis back then, neither is it now, we don't believe them these days either.

Perhaps the closest example would be L. Ron. Hubbard? He convinced more than a thousand in his time though, he outdid Jesus by a mile. His reward actually was on earth.
On what you've been told is in the Bible, or what you've read in the Bible yourself? I got the impression that you haven't read much in the Bible because you don't believe it anyway, but I may be mistaken.

There are several passages just in the four gospels where Jesus declared himself the Son of God, or others declared him the Son of God and he did not disagree and accepted the title from them. The title "Son of God" in reference to Jesus is unique -- not that he is "a" son of God, or a child of God, but that he has a unique position and status. The majority of Christians interpret that Jesus was the actual human incarnation of God; some denominations teach that he was a separate being sent by God the Father, but all the same unique -- not just a teacher, a prophet, a rabbi, but a man truly sent by God.

You can certainly disbelieve the Bible, or disbelieve that the man Jesus ever existed. But the Bible contains the record of what he said and what was said about him by his followers and others who met him. In those writings, he claimed to be the unique Son of God, others claimed him to be the unique Son of God -- and there is substantial Biblical support that he was the incarnation of God.

I'm also trying to understand your description of him as "feckless" and "indolent"? Even if you look at him as an entirely fictional character, I don't see any indication of him being described that way. Can you give an example?

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Joined: April 17th, 2006, 10:37 pm

March 3rd, 2012, 9:00 pm #8

Good point I think. 1000 out of 7 or 8 million. Not to be controversial, but it makes you wonder about the Christian Zionists calling them "chosen", in light of these numbers.

The Jews Didn't Believe So Why Should We?

By John W. Loftus at 3/01/2012

The Jews of Jesus' day believed in Yahweh and that he performed miracles, and they knew their Old Testament prophecies, and yet the overwhelming majority of them did not believe Jesus was raised from the dead by Yahweh. The most plausible estimate of the first-century Jewish population comes from a census of the Roman Empire during the reign of Claudius (48 CE) that counted nearly 7 million Jews. If we add in the Jews outside the Roman Empire in places like Babylon, the total first century Jewish population could have been 8 million. It's estimated that there may have been as many as 2.5 million Jews in Palestine. By contrast, as Catholic New Testament scholar David C. Sim argues, "Throughout the first century the total number of Jews in the Christian movement probably never exceeded 1,000 and by the end of the century the Christian church was largely Gentile." (Link) Since the Jews didn't believe why should we? No really. Why should we?

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The Jews didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah because he wasn't what they were expecting. They expected a Messianic priest-king who would lead them politically and militarily to overthrow occupying Rome. They weren't expecting a rabbi who would teach them that with all of their laws and rules and restrictions, they were totally missing what God really wanted. That women, children, and foreigners were not less worthy in the eyes of God. That we are to love our enemies, take care of the poor, and that his kingdom was not of this world.
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Joined: March 4th, 2007, 4:09 pm

March 4th, 2012, 6:19 pm #9

Judas may have not been anything like he has been portrayed in The Bible. Nor Jesus. Rememeber, Jesus and Judas were NOT Christians, and have never had a thing to do with Christianity which just used 'him'. From what I have read allegedly said by Yeshua, he preached nothing new. 'You only get to God through me' stuff, is obviously totally misunderstood, manipulated, agenda'd...

IF he was speaking of having a Christ / Cosmic Consciousness, this is a whole new ball gane, and I believe all great Messengers bring this message. NO favourites, message for ALL. No need for a specific religion or any religion. Consciousness is way above being just a religious THING. Religion cramps and imposes and reduces and imprisons, imo.

I can see no problem with a Spiritual Messenger who was crucified for whatever reasons and whose name was Jesus / yeshua. Nothing not to believe really. It was not a unique happening.

But anything can be gotten hold of and manipulated. This episode, imo, COULD have been such a thing.

It is obviously not everything that Yeshua ever shared has been noted and used. The guy would surely have had much more to say than the few paragraphs taking up a manipulated book.

Love
Jackie




Then, surely his brother...
James, the Just...
Leader of the Assembly at Jerusalem...
Had more to say...
Than the skimpy "epistle"...
Allotted him in the NT texts.

I mean, think about it...
Jesus gets a few pithy sayings...
-- Repeated through Four Gospels...
And...
His very own BROTHER...
The LEADER of the Assembly at Jerusalem...
Gets ONE Skimpy, little "epistle"...
But...
This other guy...
-- "Paul"...
Fills out a THIRD of the Christian Texts...??

Oh yeah...
You can be sure...
There's more than a wee bit...
Of "manipulation" happening there.

-PRev1-

President Barrack Hussein Obama

-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --


"If you suddenly think Stephen Colbert is truly right wing, that's when I would worry."
-- Neuropsychologist Katherine Rankin.
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Joined: March 4th, 2007, 4:09 pm

March 4th, 2012, 6:38 pm #10

On what you've been told is in the Bible, or what you've read in the Bible yourself? I got the impression that you haven't read much in the Bible because you don't believe it anyway, but I may be mistaken.

There are several passages just in the four gospels where Jesus declared himself the Son of God, or others declared him the Son of God and he did not disagree and accepted the title from them. The title "Son of God" in reference to Jesus is unique -- not that he is "a" son of God, or a child of God, but that he has a unique position and status. The majority of Christians interpret that Jesus was the actual human incarnation of God; some denominations teach that he was a separate being sent by God the Father, but all the same unique -- not just a teacher, a prophet, a rabbi, but a man truly sent by God.

You can certainly disbelieve the Bible, or disbelieve that the man Jesus ever existed. But the Bible contains the record of what he said and what was said about him by his followers and others who met him. In those writings, he claimed to be the unique Son of God, others claimed him to be the unique Son of God -- and there is substantial Biblical support that he was the incarnation of God.

I'm also trying to understand your description of him as "feckless" and "indolent"? Even if you look at him as an entirely fictional character, I don't see any indication of him being described that way. Can you give an example?
Jesus was no more "unique" than David or Solomon...
Or any other Messiah before him.

David and Solomon were BOTH...
-- Messianic, Sons of God.
And, so was Jesus.

You are putting far too much emphasis on that title.
And, that emphasis is due entirely...
-- To Gentile Superstition.

"There is substantial Biblical support that he was the incarnation of God."...?

Really...?
In light of the revelations...
Found within the Jewish Texts...
In the Caves of Qumran...
-- I think not.

The concept that Jesus was God Incarnate is, at best...
A misunderstanding...
A misinterpretation...
And...
A misrepresentation...
Of the Truth.

If, in fact, he DID Exist...
Then...
Jesus was just a man...
-- Like any other.
No more and no less.
-- A merely mortal, human being.

-PRev1-

President Barrack Hussein Obama

-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --


"If you suddenly think Stephen Colbert is truly right wing, that's when I would worry."
-- Neuropsychologist Katherine Rankin.
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