The Fool Has Said...

The Fool Has Said...

Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

September 12th, 2010, 2:57 am #1

Below, an atheist take on this verse. I was looking for another article, but came across this. Thought it was quite well presented, and provides food for thought.

Saturday, January 19, 2008
The Fool Has Said...
Posted by Nikkolas S. Jakson
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalm 53:1 (also Psalm 14:1)


Read the above carefully. What does it say? I'm not concerned about the fool part. I couldn't care less about the opinions of dead bible writers. I also don't give a damn (hey, if it was good enough for Rhett, its good enough for me, I don't need to use stronger language) about the narrow-minded opinions of narrow-minded Christian morons. No, what I'm referring to is where the atheist says "There is no God", in his heart. Think about that. The fool does not say in his mind there is no deity, but in his heart.


How many atheists are atheists because they searched for God but could not find Him (Her?). I would guess quite a lot. That was true in my own case. I never wanted to "hate" God. I simply gave up the search. I was a born-again Christian for many years. When I finally concluded it wasn't the truth, I became an atheist, but that didn't last long. I still wanted the comfort of believing, thinking, wrongly I now realize, that I needed God to give my life meaning and purpose, and to get through the hard times. I really thought, like most theists, that I would be less alone in this sometimes harsh world if God was "with" me. So after Christianity I considered Islam (I bought every book I could find on it. I remember going to used bookstores and nearly buying out the Islamic sections of their shelf's. I had a Muslim friend who sort of influenced me in that direction as well, and I seriously looked into the religion) , I also considered Judaism (the Jewish emphasis on goodness as opposed to salvation based on what you believe appealed to me greatly), before finally settling on theism without religion, or Philosophical Theism. I thought I could have my cake and eat it too, but the problem of evil became too much to overcome in the end. I also knew that God was completely silent. I prayed for answers, for a sense once again of God's presence, for any kind of sign He was there (I did sometimes get my hopes up, looking at every seeming coincidence as if it meant something, but then I would remember all the disconfirming evidence around me and within my own life and the lives of those I knew and loved).


One thing that really makes me angry is the asinine view that atheists don't reject God because they can't believe intellectually, but because they are in moral revolt against God's rules, e.g., sexual behavior, etc. What utter bullshit (there, I used a bit of a stronger word, happy now)? That idea is even repeated endlessly by so-called "sophisticated" Christians such as the nasty little theist Dinesh D'Souza. Well, I even spent time (in my weaker moments) with some Jehovah's Witnesses and some Mormons, hoping I could find something in those faiths that was real. But I could no longer believe. I tried but it was impossible. I would have gladly accepted all the restrictions on behavior that religion tries to impose (usually unsuccessfully even among many of their most devout) because I wanted, with all my heart, to really believe there is a God who cares. The failure of so many sincere seekers to find this invisible God is only one more piece of evidence that such a God does not exist, for if He did, would he not reach out to His children and let them know He loves them and cares for them? Why would he let them become atheists after they have tried so hard to find him? Of course not all atheists have traveled this path, and some have never gone through a religious phase, but many, many have. Where was God when they were crying out to Him?

###
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Joined: January 13th, 2010, 2:50 pm

September 12th, 2010, 3:16 am #2

My observation is that some atheists, not all, but some... I would even submit that it's "many atheist", but I'd like to avoid being too argumentative...

Some atheists intellectually argue that there is no God, but that's not necessarily what they believe, when you press on the details. At the core there is an argument over semantics, really.

Atheists will argue with believers of all faiths, but Christians seem to be the most "fun". And the denials of atheists aren't really about denying God most of the time, but about the absurd logic and outrageous claims made by ardent believers. The extreme lengths that believers go to in order to justify the most illogical and irrational statements & beliefs can only really be described as willful stupidity. This is really the heart of what atheists reject, I do sincerely believe. In fact we all should reject illogical and irrational things. Ironically, the Bible even says to do so. Interesting that atheists will catch on to that more often than believers and folks that claim to study the Bible with all sorts of study guides and translation helpers.

So far, I can say honestly that I've only met one atheist in my life that I would consider "unGodly". The rest (including all current posters on this forum) are decent, honest, patient, compassionate, forthright, and upstanding people. Ironically, it is often the "believers" that fail to demonstrate such traits. But again, the Bible explains rather clearly, "By their fruits..."

And yes... I understand that this post is futile, and that the folks that "get it" already know this, and the folks that don't will continue to live in their denial and self-imposed state of ignorance... But it needs to be stated on occasion anyway, I do believe.

Last edited by ever-a-newbie on September 12th, 2010, 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JVH
Joined: July 20th, 2009, 1:33 pm

September 12th, 2010, 3:29 am #3


In the way you described, perhaps ... but really, not really, really.

 
<p align="center">The main feature of religious reasoning of a valid and/or sound nature appears to be that it doesn't seem to exist
(and since the deity of choice appears of the same nature, the one seems to, necessarily, infer the other).

<p align="left"> 
<p align="left">Brought to you by:

<img alt="punchandjudynews.jpg" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... dynews.jpg">



<p align="right">Scientific Creationism: a religious dogma combining massive ignorance with incredible arrogance.

Creationist: 1) one who follows creationism. 2) oblivious to reasoning and logic also known as common sense. 3) incapable of doing math.
4) a true believer. 5) gullible to the extreme. 6) can't add 7) convinced of its righteousness. 8) can't subtract. 9) devoid of introspection.

<p align="left">- fallacious, abductive, inductive, deductive
are the basic modes of reasoning -- when we
fail to discern between them, we are destined
to act accordingly ......


<p align="center">... after all, logic demands explicit contains implicit
so, iff what is explicitly posed is true, then what it
necessarily infers or implies must logically be true
as well - if not, then it is incontrovertibly axiomatic
there is something amiss with the explicitly posed ...


<p align="right">... and such is the excruciating irony of incomprehensibility
& self-refutation; those oblivious of it are indispensably
the experts in applying it, in effect, revealing the exact
opposite of apparent intent thereby granting the courtesy
of instant clarification.

Mice In A Maze-Going In Circles



<p align="left">Ardent believers turn out to be quite useful creatures
because they seem to be some sort of omniscient.
You can therefore always depend on them to tell you
exactly what your thoughts and feelings are
and what your opinions and conduct should be.

Handy.


<p align="center">It is as it is - It goes as it goes
If it doesn't go, that's how it goes
If it isn't, then that's how it is

New!! Improved!! Now With T-Formula!!


There is forgiveness. Unfortunately, forgiveness doesn't mean a thing
..... when not applied that is. Therefore, it is I who forgive, publically
those who either dare or will not - for, as it seems, they are not ready
yet, to do so by themselves; out of themselves. I hereby thus, plow
the road; leading the way, for those eager to walk that walk as well.
JVH, July 20, 2010, 2:22
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Tim
Tim

September 12th, 2010, 3:58 am #4

My observation is that some atheists, not all, but some... I would even submit that it's "many atheist", but I'd like to avoid being too argumentative...

Some atheists intellectually argue that there is no God, but that's not necessarily what they believe, when you press on the details. At the core there is an argument over semantics, really.

Atheists will argue with believers of all faiths, but Christians seem to be the most "fun". And the denials of atheists aren't really about denying God most of the time, but about the absurd logic and outrageous claims made by ardent believers. The extreme lengths that believers go to in order to justify the most illogical and irrational statements & beliefs can only really be described as willful stupidity. This is really the heart of what atheists reject, I do sincerely believe. In fact we all should reject illogical and irrational things. Ironically, the Bible even says to do so. Interesting that atheists will catch on to that more often than believers and folks that claim to study the Bible with all sorts of study guides and translation helpers.

So far, I can say honestly that I've only met one atheist in my life that I would consider "unGodly". The rest (including all current posters on this forum) are decent, honest, patient, compassionate, forthright, and upstanding people. Ironically, it is often the "believers" that fail to demonstrate such traits. But again, the Bible explains rather clearly, "By their fruits..."

And yes... I understand that this post is futile, and that the folks that "get it" already know this, and the folks that don't will continue to live in their denial and self-imposed state of ignorance... But it needs to be stated on occasion anyway, I do believe.
The perplexity of this world is what makes it complicated.
Reincarnation, Evolution, Atheism, Buddhism, Islamic, Confucius, Mormon, JWs, Catholics, Protestants, Unitary, Deity, Trinity, etc...
All making scrambled eggs out of simple Truth.


Today God is quiet, but I would be much more confused if it weren't for the things I have witnessed with my own eyes and mind. Supernatural things, not logical, and with witnesses and with aftereffects.

I think in these end times God will be more silent to His children, kind of like Christ on the cross saying "Why has thou forsaken me?!?!"

Peter explains this best; 1 Peter4:12
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

And Paul explains what he fears for you, and me;
2 Corinthians11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Love to you and yours in Jesus our Christ, the Son of God.

Tim
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Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

September 12th, 2010, 4:00 am #5

Below, an atheist take on this verse. I was looking for another article, but came across this. Thought it was quite well presented, and provides food for thought.

Saturday, January 19, 2008
The Fool Has Said...
Posted by Nikkolas S. Jakson
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalm 53:1 (also Psalm 14:1)


Read the above carefully. What does it say? I'm not concerned about the fool part. I couldn't care less about the opinions of dead bible writers. I also don't give a damn (hey, if it was good enough for Rhett, its good enough for me, I don't need to use stronger language) about the narrow-minded opinions of narrow-minded Christian morons. No, what I'm referring to is where the atheist says "There is no God", in his heart. Think about that. The fool does not say in his mind there is no deity, but in his heart.


How many atheists are atheists because they searched for God but could not find Him (Her?). I would guess quite a lot. That was true in my own case. I never wanted to "hate" God. I simply gave up the search. I was a born-again Christian for many years. When I finally concluded it wasn't the truth, I became an atheist, but that didn't last long. I still wanted the comfort of believing, thinking, wrongly I now realize, that I needed God to give my life meaning and purpose, and to get through the hard times. I really thought, like most theists, that I would be less alone in this sometimes harsh world if God was "with" me. So after Christianity I considered Islam (I bought every book I could find on it. I remember going to used bookstores and nearly buying out the Islamic sections of their shelf's. I had a Muslim friend who sort of influenced me in that direction as well, and I seriously looked into the religion) , I also considered Judaism (the Jewish emphasis on goodness as opposed to salvation based on what you believe appealed to me greatly), before finally settling on theism without religion, or Philosophical Theism. I thought I could have my cake and eat it too, but the problem of evil became too much to overcome in the end. I also knew that God was completely silent. I prayed for answers, for a sense once again of God's presence, for any kind of sign He was there (I did sometimes get my hopes up, looking at every seeming coincidence as if it meant something, but then I would remember all the disconfirming evidence around me and within my own life and the lives of those I knew and loved).


One thing that really makes me angry is the asinine view that atheists don't reject God because they can't believe intellectually, but because they are in moral revolt against God's rules, e.g., sexual behavior, etc. What utter bullshit (there, I used a bit of a stronger word, happy now)? That idea is even repeated endlessly by so-called "sophisticated" Christians such as the nasty little theist Dinesh D'Souza. Well, I even spent time (in my weaker moments) with some Jehovah's Witnesses and some Mormons, hoping I could find something in those faiths that was real. But I could no longer believe. I tried but it was impossible. I would have gladly accepted all the restrictions on behavior that religion tries to impose (usually unsuccessfully even among many of their most devout) because I wanted, with all my heart, to really believe there is a God who cares. The failure of so many sincere seekers to find this invisible God is only one more piece of evidence that such a God does not exist, for if He did, would he not reach out to His children and let them know He loves them and cares for them? Why would he let them become atheists after they have tried so hard to find him? Of course not all atheists have traveled this path, and some have never gone through a religious phase, but many, many have. Where was God when they were crying out to Him?

###
Some assert atheism is a religion. Okay. Let's go with that.

I ask the atheist to "prove" his or her religion, by providing proof and evidence. i.e. Show me your god!

The atheist admits they can't produce their god.

Who has "won" the debate?

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Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

September 12th, 2010, 4:03 am #6

My observation is that some atheists, not all, but some... I would even submit that it's "many atheist", but I'd like to avoid being too argumentative...

Some atheists intellectually argue that there is no God, but that's not necessarily what they believe, when you press on the details. At the core there is an argument over semantics, really.

Atheists will argue with believers of all faiths, but Christians seem to be the most "fun". And the denials of atheists aren't really about denying God most of the time, but about the absurd logic and outrageous claims made by ardent believers. The extreme lengths that believers go to in order to justify the most illogical and irrational statements & beliefs can only really be described as willful stupidity. This is really the heart of what atheists reject, I do sincerely believe. In fact we all should reject illogical and irrational things. Ironically, the Bible even says to do so. Interesting that atheists will catch on to that more often than believers and folks that claim to study the Bible with all sorts of study guides and translation helpers.

So far, I can say honestly that I've only met one atheist in my life that I would consider "unGodly". The rest (including all current posters on this forum) are decent, honest, patient, compassionate, forthright, and upstanding people. Ironically, it is often the "believers" that fail to demonstrate such traits. But again, the Bible explains rather clearly, "By their fruits..."

And yes... I understand that this post is futile, and that the folks that "get it" already know this, and the folks that don't will continue to live in their denial and self-imposed state of ignorance... But it needs to be stated on occasion anyway, I do believe.
Is that the "God" that some atheists reject, is a strawman "God".

A "Straw God"?

And as providence would have it, an internet search finds some suggestions that Dawkins has attacked a Straw Dog. But much more interesting is this:

Funeral Pyre of a Straw God

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JVH
Joined: July 20th, 2009, 1:33 pm

September 12th, 2010, 4:12 am #7

Some assert atheism is a religion. Okay. Let's go with that.

I ask the atheist to "prove" his or her religion, by providing proof and evidence. i.e. Show me your god!

The atheist admits they can't produce their god.

Who has "won" the debate?
<img alt="happy.gif" src="/images/happy.gif" width="14" height="14">
<p align="center">The main feature of religious reasoning of a valid and/or sound nature appears to be that it doesn't seem to exist
(and since the deity of choice appears of the same nature, the one seems to, necessarily, infer the other).

<p align="left"> 
<p align="left">Brought to you by:

<img alt="punchandjudynews.jpg" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... dynews.jpg">



<p align="right">Scientific Creationism: a religious dogma combining massive ignorance with incredible arrogance.

Creationist: 1) one who follows creationism. 2) oblivious to reasoning and logic also known as common sense. 3) incapable of doing math.
4) a true believer. 5) gullible to the extreme. 6) can't add 7) convinced of its righteousness. 8) can't subtract. 9) devoid of introspection.

<p align="left">- fallacious, abductive, inductive, deductive
are the basic modes of reasoning -- when we
fail to discern between them, we are destined
to act accordingly ......

<img alt="[linked image]" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... hink-1.gif">
<p align="center">... after all, logic demands explicit contains implicit
so, iff what is explicitly posed is true, then what it
necessarily infers or implies must logically be true
as well - if not, then it is incontrovertibly axiomatic
there is something amiss with the explicitly posed ...

<img alt="[linked image]" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... talk-1.gif">
<p align="right">... and such is the excruciating irony of incomprehensibility
& self-refutation; those oblivious of it are indispensably
the experts in applying it, in effect, revealing the exact
opposite of apparent intent thereby granting the courtesy
of instant clarification.

Mice In A Maze-Going In Circles

<img alt="[linked image]" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... arch-1.gif">

<p align="left">Ardent believers turn out to be quite useful creatures
because they seem to be some sort of omniscient.
You can therefore always depend on them to tell you
exactly what your thoughts and feelings are
and what your opinions and conduct should be.

Handy.

<img alt="[linked image]" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... rite-1.gif">
<p align="center">It is as it is - It goes as it goes
If it doesn't go, that's how it goes
If it isn't, then that's how it is

New!! Improved!! Now With T-Formula!!

<img alt="[linked image]" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... s.gif">[hr]There is forgiveness. Unfortunately, forgiveness doesn't mean a thing
..... when not applied that is. Therefore, it is I who forgive, publically
those who either dare or will not - for, as it seems, they are not ready
yet, to do so by themselves; out of themselves. I hereby thus, plow
the road; leading the way, for those eager to walk that walk as well.
JVH, July 20, 2010, 2:22
Last edited by JVH on September 12th, 2010, 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tim
Tim

September 12th, 2010, 4:16 am #8

Some assert atheism is a religion. Okay. Let's go with that.

I ask the atheist to "prove" his or her religion, by providing proof and evidence. i.e. Show me your god!

The atheist admits they can't produce their god.

Who has "won" the debate?
""""Some assert atheism is a religion. Okay. Let's go with that.
I ask the atheist to "prove" his or her religion, by providing proof and evidence. i.e. Show me your god!
The atheist admits they can't produce their god.
Who has "won" the debate?""""

Funny Mondo

They would have to claim Evolution, Mother Nature, but then that isn't a god ether, it's just false science

High five Bro!
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JVH
Joined: July 20th, 2009, 1:33 pm

September 12th, 2010, 4:26 am #9


What Mondo proposed might be a non-starter, but what you posed in response is most certainly a non-sequitur.

 
<p align="center">The main feature of religious reasoning of a valid and/or sound nature appears to be that it doesn't seem to exist
(and since the deity of choice appears of the same nature, the one seems to, necessarily, infer the other).

<p align="left"> 
<p align="left">Brought to you by:

<img alt="punchandjudynews.jpg" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... dynews.jpg">



<p align="right">Scientific Creationism: a religious dogma combining massive ignorance with incredible arrogance.

Creationist: 1) one who follows creationism. 2) oblivious to reasoning and logic also known as common sense. 3) incapable of doing math.
4) a true believer. 5) gullible to the extreme. 6) can't add 7) convinced of its righteousness. 8) can't subtract. 9) devoid of introspection.

<p align="left">- fallacious, abductive, inductive, deductive
are the basic modes of reasoning -- when we
fail to discern between them, we are destined
to act accordingly ......


<p align="center">... after all, logic demands explicit contains implicit
so, iff what is explicitly posed is true, then what it
necessarily infers or implies must logically be true
as well - if not, then it is incontrovertibly axiomatic
there is something amiss with the explicitly posed ...


<p align="right">... and such is the excruciating irony of incomprehensibility
& self-refutation; those oblivious of it are indispensably
the experts in applying it, in effect, revealing the exact
opposite of apparent intent thereby granting the courtesy
of instant clarification.

Mice In A Maze-Going In Circles



<p align="left">Ardent believers turn out to be quite useful creatures
because they seem to be some sort of omniscient.
You can therefore always depend on them to tell you
exactly what your thoughts and feelings are
and what your opinions and conduct should be.

Handy.


<p align="center">It is as it is - It goes as it goes
If it doesn't go, that's how it goes
If it isn't, then that's how it is

New!! Improved!! Now With T-Formula!!


There is forgiveness. Unfortunately, forgiveness doesn't mean a thing
..... when not applied that is. Therefore, it is I who forgive, publically
those who either dare or will not - for, as it seems, they are not ready
yet, to do so by themselves; out of themselves. I hereby thus, plow
the road; leading the way, for those eager to walk that walk as well.
JVH, July 20, 2010, 2:22
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Striver
Striver

September 12th, 2010, 2:25 pm #10

The perplexity of this world is what makes it complicated.
Reincarnation, Evolution, Atheism, Buddhism, Islamic, Confucius, Mormon, JWs, Catholics, Protestants, Unitary, Deity, Trinity, etc...
All making scrambled eggs out of simple Truth.


Today God is quiet, but I would be much more confused if it weren't for the things I have witnessed with my own eyes and mind. Supernatural things, not logical, and with witnesses and with aftereffects.

I think in these end times God will be more silent to His children, kind of like Christ on the cross saying "Why has thou forsaken me?!?!"

Peter explains this best; 1 Peter4:12
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

And Paul explains what he fears for you, and me;
2 Corinthians11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Love to you and yours in Jesus our Christ, the Son of God.

Tim
As usual, the rock upon which Christian opinions are built, and without which they fall, is a Being-God. Since this God cannot be produced, all of their opinions and beliefs are like the froth on beer. Pretty, but ho substance.
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