So here we are. It is Monday morning...

So here we are. It is Monday morning...

Joined: October 1st, 2006, 10:04 am

January 31st, 2011, 8:13 am #1

Morning all!!

Kiddies just left for school and Im getting ready to go out and have my Monday morning breakfast in a favoutire cafe, read a good book, take any necessary notes, look around the shops, (meaning bookshop usually ), and well, is there now world abundance and an end to poverty?

I will have to wait till I can get back home and put on the telly and see!

Ah, what would we do without Sky News, eh?

(Oh, income tax to hit 40 per cent? NOT a good start...)


Love
Jackie







"Not everything that is true need necessarily be divulged to all men."
Last edited by BlueJudah on January 31st, 2011, 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

January 31st, 2011, 3:17 pm #2

I've seen some of the "responses" to you , and understand them having been "inside" at one time. The belief system must be defended. I get that.

Leaving that though, for the moment.

How could the existence of God be detected? How could the effect of prayer be measured? What's the difference between something that is prayed about, and something that is not?

Well, there is no difference, other than emotional release. Which is a good thing, but isn't what is intended by most people that pray.

Thus it looks like a personal God that answers prayers and gets involved in our day to day activities, cares about what shoes we wear or whether we get a parking space or not -- does not exist.

The evidence is simply lacking. Notwithstanding the appeals of believers.

This does not mean that the Universe is uncaused. Although it could well be. We don't know. But that if there is a cause, it is as likely to be Zeus as the God of the Bible. Both unlikely. The likelihood that a personal "God" created the Universe is exceedingly slim, in my view.

This is not a shot against religion or believers. Just an objective view.

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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

January 31st, 2011, 3:21 pm #3

God looks to the heart means "he is not listening to what people say, but he RESPONDS to a true desire for truth, hence and unselfish desire):

the universe is made up of TWO FORCES, desire (prayer) and WILL (light that fulfills desire)


get these two right and a third element is born, a new manifestation of these two coming together



just like in the physical world, but here it is the INVISIBLE that rules all matter, which makes it the TRUE SUBSTANCE of life moving the 'shadow' or manifestation
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

January 31st, 2011, 3:49 pm #4

Mindless violence and abuse occur daily.

Many truly desire that these things cease.

It's hard to make a case for prayer "working" at this level. Yes, we can write things off as God's will or humans cannot comprehend. But ultimately, if we see no difference, that prayer has no effect -- what is the answer?

God does not exist? God does not care? Prayer doesn't make a difference?

I'm not trying to be pointed, just honest.

The Deist God is one that is uninvolved in the Cosmos. This seems to be the reality.
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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

January 31st, 2011, 4:07 pm #5

the reason we are all heading for what the Bible calls the "great tribulation" is because the "collective ego" has reached its epic porportion:

God gives his light to the evil (ego) and the good (the soul that desires ONLY HIM), but once the "time" comes for these two to be SEPERATED, SEVERED, he stops listening to the ego and only listens to the good, to the SOUL that he is making:


trust me I live this daily for 18 years: Im in boot camp training in this matter and it has been the most difficult time of my life:

I thought my ego suffered but it is nothing compared to how my soul suffers with the "left over ego" called the "body of sin" that has to be destroyed once the SEPARATION (apostle-apostate) happens within:


once we are in two worlds, one becomes black (ego) and one becomes white (light goes to the soul, to Israel and no longer Egypt (ego)


this is terrible for the ego in all people who feel that God has abandoned them and it is true, he has

yet he will be there for the SOUL more than ever, but the ego in us hates the soul in us so it is vested in STEALING the light from the soul (hence it is the thief)



the soul clings to God at this time and this is how the soul grows (is sanctified) but only when it prays "DESIRES" correctly

and what is this corrected desire????


it has to be a desire for Gods will and only his will


it is a desire to LOVE the neighbor as itself

if it does not reach this level of correction the suffering becomes unbearable and it would be better to enter a new body and try again than to continue on suffering with the same 'mindset' of the same ego that can't receive anything anymore from the LORD




I have been refined to the point that no matter how I suffer I am able to draw the light to help me instead of "BLAMING GOD" which is the natural response of the ego


it didn't come easy but the better I am at this, the quicker my suffering ends and I understand more and more that God is making a "NEW THING" with this move


its not like the ego that knows nothing of who it is and where it comes from and where it is going


this NEW creation KNOWS HIS CREATOR and therefore must be finished in his image and likeness



like Jesus said, it is better to give (will good, intend good) than to receive (desire) but if one DESIRES the GOOD THING, then they FIT hand and glove and the desire is FULFILLED


we all must pray that people come to this realization and learn to PRAY according to the Lords example


OUR father (he belongs to all his sons)


hallowed (HOLY) is your name (it is the completion of our soul (in his name)


your Kingdom come

your WILL be done

in earth (in our consciousness)

as it is in heaven (higher consciousness of God)



give us this day our daily bread (don't ask for more than you NEED)


and forgive us as we forgive (we are one after all)


and lead us NOT into temptation (help us not to learn the hard way)


but deliver us from evil (ego consciousness)


for yours is the Kingdom

and the power

and the glory

FOREVER

amen
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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Joined: September 30th, 2009, 7:55 pm

January 31st, 2011, 5:44 pm #6

Mindless violence and abuse occur daily.

Many truly desire that these things cease.

It's hard to make a case for prayer "working" at this level. Yes, we can write things off as God's will or humans cannot comprehend. But ultimately, if we see no difference, that prayer has no effect -- what is the answer?

God does not exist? God does not care? Prayer doesn't make a difference?

I'm not trying to be pointed, just honest.

The Deist God is one that is uninvolved in the Cosmos. This seems to be the reality.
Mondo said: The Deist God is one that is uninvolved in the Cosmos. This seems to be the reality.

Yes, the reality is that there is either no god, or a god that is uninvolved with the Universe.

And if this supposed god is uninvolved with the Universe, then basically that makes this god, for all intents and purposes, invisible to us.

"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delo McKown

In which case I must ask what evidence there is to support a belief in such a deity. If this god doesn't interfere in the universe, and we have no way of detecting this god, then how does one come about to claim this god exists, outside of assumptions?

I used to be a Deist. I found my Deism to be extremely helpful in my transition from Christian to atheist as it weaned me off my need to believe in deities. But in the end, I must still go by the evidence at hand. My best friend is a Deist, who is still kinda irked at me for becoming an atheist.

I asked my friend why he is no longer a Christian. His response was basically the same as mine: Lack of evidence to support the Jesus fable, and even less evidence to support belief in the Judeo/Christian god.

So I asked him why he believes in a Deistic god. His response: "Because there just HAS to be a god."

Well... no. There doesn't HAVE to be anything.

Alot of the people I hang around with are non-believers. 2 of my close friends are atheist, but a majority of my friends are Deist or Christian. And in regards to my offline Deistic friends, it appears to me that they support the scientific method with nearly all things. Everything is examined via the lens of the scientific method... until they get to god. When they get to god, the scientific method is no longer used. And usually for the same reason.

There just HAS to be a god, so I have no need to question the assumption.

Well, the Hindus say there just HAS to be a 4-armed god named Vishnu.

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"The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church." -- Ferdinand Magellan
Last edited by edstrange13 on January 31st, 2011, 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

January 31st, 2011, 6:32 pm #7

Is probably just an explanation for what is. Another name for the "First Cause", or what have you.

Certainly wars have not been fought in the name of this God (well, it doesn't have a name ), and there is no curriculum, belief system, etc built around him/her/it.

My point was more that maybe you can make an argument for a Creator (i.e. Deist God) based on "everything needing a cause", but this is still a far cry from a personal God that cares about humans in their daily lives, or about their suffering on this Earth and so on.

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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

January 31st, 2011, 7:26 pm #8

when the personal touches, is joined to, and receives "KNOWLEDEGE" from the IMPERSONAL, the impersonal is personalized:

we are "as he is" in the world:


the story of Jesus shows us that God is making MAN.....and that is how the impersonal GOD becomes a PERSONAL God;

if one does not "know" this impersonal God personally, then he is still impersonal for sure
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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Joined: September 30th, 2009, 7:55 pm

January 31st, 2011, 7:30 pm #9

Is probably just an explanation for what is. Another name for the "First Cause", or what have you.

Certainly wars have not been fought in the name of this God (well, it doesn't have a name ), and there is no curriculum, belief system, etc built around him/her/it.

My point was more that maybe you can make an argument for a Creator (i.e. Deist God) based on "everything needing a cause", but this is still a far cry from a personal God that cares about humans in their daily lives, or about their suffering on this Earth and so on.
Mondo said: My point was more that maybe you can make an argument for a Creator (i.e. Deist God) based on "everything needing a cause", but this is still a far cry from a personal God that cares about humans in their daily lives, or about their suffering on this Earth and so on.

Oh, I agree with you that Deists don't believe in a personal god, nor did I wish to imply that.

As for "everything needing a cause", I agree that physics teaches us that everything needs a cause. In the case of the Universe, sounds like that cause was gravitation. We've known for decades that gravity is the strongest force in the Universe.

ie: Gravity could have been the "First Cause", as Hawking has suggested.

When I was a Deist, I went thru 2 phases:

The 1st phase (right after deconverting from Christianity), where I thought an intelligent, conscious god intentionally created the Universe, then retired from creation. Life forms evolving was the reason this god created the Universe.

The 2nd phase (right before becoming an atheist) was when I questioned whether this god was intelligent at all, and that life forms were an unintentional natural byproduct of chemistry and physics. ie: life starts just as naturally as hydrogen fuses to form helium. I pondered if this god was the Universe itself, and wasn't "conscious", and that everything in the universe was a part of this god. I guess you can say I was flirting with Pantheism.


-----------------------------------------------
"The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church." -- Ferdinand Magellan
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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

January 31st, 2011, 7:37 pm #10

it wouldn't come up with an objective answer:


we are all destined to "KNOW" as we are known, but that means we have to experience the "FIRST CAUSE" to understand and GRASP HOW HE CREATES


this is what happens at the coming of CHRIST

we experience the "END" (of one consciousnes) and the beginning of a new one in the same body

if we just experience this over and over by dying physically, we will never UNDERSTAND, grasp or KNOW how it happens:


once you experience it, you KNOW and then you don't have to repeat that experience of "death" and life again by change of body
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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