Looking more at agnosticism for TS

Looking more at agnosticism for TS

Joined: July 13th, 2009, 1:50 pm

March 8th, 2010, 12:06 am #1

Hello TS

Let me just share with you what I've studied about agnosticism and your claim to be one. Please don't be offended because I STILL WANT TO BELIEVE YOU'RE HONEST and are TRULY seeking truth. What I'm having trouble with is what we FIRST TALKED about in LEARNING TRUTH. I mentioned when you learned truth would you accept it or would you insist that there is more to learn?

Many agnostics today are really atheists but characterize themselves as agnostic because it is more socially acceptable. I'm not going to see you that way YET but I must continue to test your claims and the TRUTH WILL COME OUT.

The advantage perceived by these atheists who CLAIM to be agnostic is they just claim there is more to know. However, TS when you accept a claim as TRUE you must be able to substantiate the claim or substantiate what you believe is NOT TRUE but is has to be done with a FACTUAL substantiation, NOT an opinion.

There is a great danger in embracing agnosticism because there are SOME QUESTIONS that are LIVE, MOMENTOUS, and FORCED. One MUST BELIEVE or DISBELIEVE even if the evidence is AMBIGUOUS or risk GREAT LOSS. My hope and prayer for YOU is that you really are seeking truth and that your decisions on what you believe or disbelieve are based on what you KNOW to be ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

Unless we LOVE the truth, we cannot know it ~~ Pascal

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Joined: February 16th, 2010, 8:01 pm

March 8th, 2010, 2:32 pm #2

Hello Nucc:
Agnosticism is not something I embrace, it is just a definition of my position regarding God. Agnostic simply means I don't have any knowledge on the subject.
I cannot conceive of time and space in terms of no beginning and no end, so it is my opinion that there is/was a creator. I simply have no knowledge of the nature of the creator.
Worship of the creator, at this point, would seem to be to persue happiness, without interfering with other's persuit of happiness.
I am not particularly looking for proof of the creator's nature, because I am of the opinion that none exists.
My truthseeking, in the context of this forum is, while recognizing that scripture has probably been corrupted by copying errors, spurious editing, and additions, to find the truth regarding what scripture was intended to say before any corruption.
I don't reject the possibility that the historical nature of scripture may be true, but I do not find that to be a necessity in the search for continuity in the scriptural story.
What do you think?

"I don't speak for God. All I have is personal opinion based on the story of continuity which runs through the bible!"
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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

March 8th, 2010, 2:40 pm #3

the story begins with the EXPERIENCE OF A PERSON (Moses who wrote the first five books) and ENDS with the EXPERIENCE of a person (JOHN)

in between the story is about people who EXPERIENCE GOD and write about that experience:

same as I do but I use their langue even though I dont have to use it

I could just as easily use my language (human language)to explain what happened to me but that wouldnt PROVE that the BIBLE IS TRUE for me

and it wouldn't prove to Christians that this is HOW THE BIBLE explains the experience of God even if they don't see it as of yet

and it wouldn't explain to agnostics or athiests that my experience means anything to them


I explain it through Biblical language to show this is as old as dirt and that it lines up with others who had the same experience and wrote it down in a hidden CODE that LINES UP WITH THE EXPERIENCE in each and every man;


whether it is historical only matters in the sense that it is a continuing story experienced by all who make claim to experience God:
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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Striver
Striver

March 8th, 2010, 4:26 pm #4

Hello TS

Let me just share with you what I've studied about agnosticism and your claim to be one. Please don't be offended because I STILL WANT TO BELIEVE YOU'RE HONEST and are TRULY seeking truth. What I'm having trouble with is what we FIRST TALKED about in LEARNING TRUTH. I mentioned when you learned truth would you accept it or would you insist that there is more to learn?

Many agnostics today are really atheists but characterize themselves as agnostic because it is more socially acceptable. I'm not going to see you that way YET but I must continue to test your claims and the TRUTH WILL COME OUT.

The advantage perceived by these atheists who CLAIM to be agnostic is they just claim there is more to know. However, TS when you accept a claim as TRUE you must be able to substantiate the claim or substantiate what you believe is NOT TRUE but is has to be done with a FACTUAL substantiation, NOT an opinion.

There is a great danger in embracing agnosticism because there are SOME QUESTIONS that are LIVE, MOMENTOUS, and FORCED. One MUST BELIEVE or DISBELIEVE even if the evidence is AMBIGUOUS or risk GREAT LOSS. My hope and prayer for YOU is that you really are seeking truth and that your decisions on what you believe or disbelieve are based on what you KNOW to be ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

Unless we LOVE the truth, we cannot know it ~~ Pascal
When Christians ferer to atheism, they refer to the God created by religion. Who can claim to be an intelligent individual, a person who thinks, and accept this vain, Bipolar, phychotic?
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Joined: July 13th, 2009, 1:50 pm

March 8th, 2010, 5:58 pm #5

Again your claim is subjective (opinion of the mind) and NOT BASED on FACT. True Christians are clear. Atheism simply means A-NO, THEISM-GOD, ESPECIALLY the God of the Holy Bible. Many atheists are blatant about their atheism to their credit (at least they admit it) BUT OTHERS don't claim to be atheists but LIVE, ACT, and TALK like they are trying to portray they KNOW SOMETHIMG when in FACT they don't, they just think they do.

Unless we LOVE the truth, we cannot know it ~~ Pascal

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Joined: July 13th, 2009, 1:50 pm

March 8th, 2010, 8:10 pm #6

Hello Nucc:
Agnosticism is not something I embrace, it is just a definition of my position regarding God. Agnostic simply means I don't have any knowledge on the subject.
I cannot conceive of time and space in terms of no beginning and no end, so it is my opinion that there is/was a creator. I simply have no knowledge of the nature of the creator.
Worship of the creator, at this point, would seem to be to persue happiness, without interfering with other's persuit of happiness.
I am not particularly looking for proof of the creator's nature, because I am of the opinion that none exists.
My truthseeking, in the context of this forum is, while recognizing that scripture has probably been corrupted by copying errors, spurious editing, and additions, to find the truth regarding what scripture was intended to say before any corruption.
I don't reject the possibility that the historical nature of scripture may be true, but I do not find that to be a necessity in the search for continuity in the scriptural story.
What do you think?

"I don't speak for God. All I have is personal opinion based on the story of continuity which runs through the bible!"
... Wish more could be like you.

TS> I cannot conceive of time and space in terms of no beginning and no end, so it is my opinion that there is/was a creator. I simply have no knowledge of the nature of the creator.

N> That's a great observation because we can observe that even some events have a beginning and an end. Some events are longer and some are shorter
but they DO BEGIN and THE DO END. As to a NATURE of THE CREATOR, you'd have to ask yourself IF there IS a Creator then WHY did He create and for WHAT PURPOSE and REASON did He create things and turn out as it has?

I'm not sure how much you've look into the post-modern thinking of man in todays society but it's thinking is an offspring of modernism and before that pre-modernism. Post-modernism much like its predecessor is largely NON-THEISTIC either overtly or affirm agnosticism. You've ALREADY stated that you're accepting there PROBABLY IS a CREATOR but you're still clinging to the concept that you have no knowledge of the NATURE of the Creator.

Since the Creator is ETERNAL, INFALLIBLE, and UNLIMITED there are things about Him we will never understand EXHAUSTIVELY, because we are a part of His creation therefore finite, fallible, and limited even in our understanding as far as THIS WORLD GOES. However, IN HIS SOVEREIGN PLAN (the purpose of His creating), His original plan (looking FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE) we can observe FROM THE BIBLE (HIS MANUAL TO US ABOUT HOW TO LIVE LIFE) we can see that MAN is a SPECIAL CREATION, ORIGINALLY created to have FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM and with EACH OTHER **BUT** that's NOT ALL HIS PLAN. In His plan the created man was created with the ability to choose, so that we wouldn't be ROBOTIC. He created things in such a way as man didn't have to walk with God or fellowship with each other IF he freely chose NOT TO. So God, gave the man the opportunity to FREELY CHOOSE to go OPPOSITE to what God had created him for, ALL THE WHILE KNOWING that man would FREELY CHOOSE to go opposite. That choice was a PART of His plan EVEN THOUGH it is very hard to understand it from a human perspective. His plan will STILL BE COMPLETED for those who FREELY CHOOSE to believe in His plan of REDEMPTION.

We must not be fooled in our pursuit of happiness to accept a counterfeit. Not knowing there is a happiness that passes all understanding and lasts FOREVER. Jesus Christ OUR ONLY TRUE REDEEMER is the WAY to that happiness.




Unless we LOVE the truth, we cannot know it ~~ Pascal

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Joined: February 16th, 2010, 8:01 pm

March 8th, 2010, 9:35 pm #7

Again your claim is subjective (opinion of the mind) and NOT BASED on FACT. True Christians are clear. Atheism simply means A-NO, THEISM-GOD, ESPECIALLY the God of the Holy Bible. Many atheists are blatant about their atheism to their credit (at least they admit it) BUT OTHERS don't claim to be atheists but LIVE, ACT, and TALK like they are trying to portray they KNOW SOMETHIMG when in FACT they don't, they just think they do.

Unless we LOVE the truth, we cannot know it ~~ Pascal
Hello Nucc:
That can be equally applied to bible believers who say they know things by faith. Faith is the substance of things only hoped for, and serves as evidence for things not seen. In other words, faith is pseudo substance, and pseudo evidence.
When one hopes for something he cannot see, he does not have knowledge. When a bible believer makes a statement about his faith, he should preface it with; This cannot be seen, but we hope it is true.
What do you think?


"I don't speak for God. All I have is personal opinion based on the story of continuity which runs through the bible!"
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Striver
Striver

March 9th, 2010, 3:08 pm #8

Again your claim is subjective (opinion of the mind) and NOT BASED on FACT. True Christians are clear. Atheism simply means A-NO, THEISM-GOD, ESPECIALLY the God of the Holy Bible. Many atheists are blatant about their atheism to their credit (at least they admit it) BUT OTHERS don't claim to be atheists but LIVE, ACT, and TALK like they are trying to portray they KNOW SOMETHIMG when in FACT they don't, they just think they do.

Unless we LOVE the truth, we cannot know it ~~ Pascal
I think that if you get to know atheists ,and I know several (damned nice, open-minded people much more ethical than many Christians I know) you'll find while they don't accept your invisible God, they predicate a Cause. But this Cause is not in the form of the Zeus look-a-like created by superstitious theologians.

Beginning in 1965 until 2.5 years ago when we moved to Colorado Springs, I directed study groups in beginner esoteric Buddhism and in Comparative Religion. I know practically nothing about Exoteric Buddhism, but at its esoteric level Buddhism posits a Cause of all that is.

But we don't believe there is a location in space called heaven in which there are three thrones occupied by God the father, his son Jesus on his right, and this vague entity, the Holy Spirit, on his left. So to you, I'm an atheist. To me, you need to put childish things away.

We lost, doomed, wretches more or less agree with Albert Einstein who said: "That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power which is revealed in the incomprehensible Universe, forms my idea of God."

Einstein also said, paraphrasing: "The future religion will be a world religion without the necessity for an anthropomorphic deity and will greatly resemble Buddhism."

He was correct. Modern science and Eastern Mysticism are coming ever so close to 100% agreement. Not modern science and religion, however, which seems to desperately occupied with remaining atop its self-created pedestal pinnacle of being special in God's eyes. Yep, that the God...the God no one has ever seen. The invisible God neither you nor those you label atheists ever see. The invisible God to whom one pledges one's allegiance runs the risk of being ostracised by their simple minded peers. Orthodox Christianity is expert at the booting out of those who don't jump on their invisible wagin, but lousy at producing the wagon .
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Joined: July 13th, 2009, 1:50 pm

March 10th, 2010, 3:52 pm #9

I guess you are unaware in your muddled thinking that TRUE Christians do meet and even confront atheists.

As a matter of fact I had a 4 hour discussion with an atheist at a car dealership service dept. just about a week ago. He was a university grad in sociology and is presently a negotiator with OPSEU, THE ONTARIO PUBLIC SERVICE EMPLOYEES UNION. He was a very intelligent person in spite of his socialist agenda. However, UNLIKE you he listened to my arguments against some horrible socialist goals, but LIKE YOU he was UNABLE to respond to my claims showing that man was INCAPABLE of bringing about happiness to all WITHOUT ACKNOWLEDGING the God of the Holy Bible.

He thought he had answers like you however, what he didn't have is answers to the RIGHT QUESTIONS like you don't have. His socialistic philosphy was more pragmatic however when asking him about certain socialist governments in the world, I asked him WHY the people in those countries ARE NOT FREE to vote in another form of government HONESTLY and WITHOUT CORRUPTION? IOW where's the RIGHTS of ALL THE PEOPLE?

*************

S> But we don't believe there is a location in space called heaven in which there are three thrones occupied by God the father, his son Jesus on his right, and this vague entity, the Holy Spirit, on his left. So to you, I'm an atheist. To me, you need to put childish things away.

N> Well maybe it is YOU that has to put away childish thoughts Striver. Just because you DON'T BELIEVE in a heaven is not enough of a statement to PROVE there is not a heaven with ONE THRONE (not three) and the throne is occupied with the Trinity of persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I'm not surprised you DIDN'T KNOW THAT. A lie believed is STILL a lie. You might think if there were intelligent people in your group some might believe that OJ is innocent.

Einstein also fudged a Cosmological Constant

In theoretical physics, when Einstein originally tried to produce a general theory of relativity, he found that the theory seemed to predict the gravitational collapse of the universe: it seemed that the universe should either be expanding or collapsing, and to produce a model in which the universe was static and stable (which seemed to Einstein at the time to be the "proper" result), he introduced an expansionist variable (called the Cosmological Constant) whose sole purpose was to cancel out the cumulative effects of gravitation. He later called this, "the biggest blunder of my life."

It's time to put away your childish thinking Striver....Theories are good BUT theories aren't FACTS unless you can disprove other theories with the FACTS. Living according to the WAYS of the God of the Holy Bible gives you the means to live by FACTS not theories. IOW willful non-believers will not accept Biblical FACTS because it exposes their CONDEMNED position before God. Since they CANNOT disprove the God of Bible they resort to fudging, distorting, diverting, making up groups to vainly attempt to prove they don't need God, and even manipulation of the Scriptures themselves.

Who would know God BETTER than one in God's own FAMILY being taught by God Himself through His Holy INDWELLING Spirit?


John 15:26
26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, {that is} the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me, (NAS)





Unless we LOVE the truth, we cannot know it ~~ Pascal

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