Interesting to me: many look for "proof" of God - both for & against.

Interesting to me: many look for "proof" of God - both for & against.

Joined: January 13th, 2010, 2:50 pm

July 30th, 2010, 3:06 am #1


Such a "proof" will never happen, I do believe. And those who put forth "proofs" really aren't proving anything, when examined in detail - either for or against the existence of God.

However, that does not mean God doesn't exist, imho. From what I can tell, God must be experienced. It is not an intellectual or emotional exercise in any fashion. Those who have never experienced it cannot know what it means, what it's like, or what it is, unfortunately. It would be like a male "knowing" what giving birth is like; we can imagine & project ourselves into the situation, but truly "knowing" is just not possible. Or a female "knowing" what getting hit "in the package" is like. (Sorry I couldn't think of a better thing that a female would never understand.)

We can all share anecdotes, find commonalities in our experiences, and even convince each other that we have experienced God. But the truth is, we can't really "prove" anything about it.

It seems to me that this is the reality of things, as far as I can tell. It seems interesting that both ardent believers and ardent non-believers refuse to accept that and want to put forth a "proof".

And the honest truth is... I find the utmost grace, divinity, and comfort in the way things are.

Random thoughts & ramblings while I'm waiting for a conference call.
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Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

July 30th, 2010, 3:12 am #2

I don't think this is unique. But the logical position is that proof of the existence or non-existence of "God" is impossible.

While we see "proofs", or claims of proofs, neither side really has a proof. And that's cool.

I long ago noted that either belief is perfectly logical. I see logical and sane people believe in God, and logical and sane people who are atheists.

What is illogical is to believe you can prove something that the philosophers, and the great minds have batted around for thousands of years without resolution.

It is illogical to believe that a 2000 year old book is "proof". It is illogical to believe that evolution is "disproof".

Here we are! Me. I don't know. I don't believe in the God of the Bible as portrayed by most so-called "christians". Atheism doesn't work for me either, although I do think God has a special place in his heart for atheists. They don't kill in his name, they don't put words in his mouth, they don't use him to justify their hatred.

Experience is worth a thousand pictures. So that's a million words. But experience isn't proof either. No, all experience is, is blessed assurance.

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JVH
Joined: July 20th, 2009, 1:33 pm

July 30th, 2010, 7:09 am #3

Such a "proof" will never happen, I do believe. And those who put forth "proofs" really aren't proving anything, when examined in detail - either for or against the existence of God.

However, that does not mean God doesn't exist, imho. From what I can tell, God must be experienced. It is not an intellectual or emotional exercise in any fashion. Those who have never experienced it cannot know what it means, what it's like, or what it is, unfortunately. It would be like a male "knowing" what giving birth is like; we can imagine & project ourselves into the situation, but truly "knowing" is just not possible. Or a female "knowing" what getting hit "in the package" is like. (Sorry I couldn't think of a better thing that a female would never understand.)

We can all share anecdotes, find commonalities in our experiences, and even convince each other that we have experienced God. But the truth is, we can't really "prove" anything about it.

It seems to me that this is the reality of things, as far as I can tell. It seems interesting that both ardent believers and ardent non-believers refuse to accept that and want to put forth a "proof".

And the honest truth is... I find the utmost grace, divinity, and comfort in the way things are.

Random thoughts & ramblings while I'm waiting for a conference call.
Yet, many do not seem to realize or appear to overlook, that, the human brain can only comprehend three categories to put information in.




<strong>After all, inference demands explicit entails implicit
Therefore, iff what is explicitly posed is true, then
what it necessarily infers or implies must logically
be true as well. If not, then it is incontrovertibly
axiomatic that there is something amiss .....
with the explicitly posed.</strong>

<p align="center">Going In Circles

The excruciating irony of incomprehensibility
& self-refutation; those oblivious of it become
indispensably the experts in applying it, effectually
revealing the exact opposite of apparent intent
thereby granting the courtesy of instant clarification.

Mice In A Maze

<p align="right">_______________________
I like hu-mans. Really
They do funnee stuffs

They seem to live with the
impression that they is some
sorts of omniscient - you can
thus always depend on them
to tell you exactly what your
thoughts and feelings is.

Handy

<p align="left">___________________________
It is as it is - It goes as it goes
If it doesn't go, that's how it goes
If it isn't, then that's how it is

<p align="left">
There is forgiveness. Unfortunately, forgiveness doesn't mean a thing
..... when not applied that is. Therefore, it is I who forgive, publically
those who either dare or will not - for, as it seems, they are not ready
yet, to do so by themselves; out of themselves. I hereby thus, plow
the road; leading the way, for those eager to walk that walk as well.
JVH, July 20, 2010, 2:22


New!! Improved!! Now With T-Formula!!

<img alt="[linked image]" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... tworks.gif">
Last edited by JVH on July 30th, 2010, 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 17th, 2006, 10:37 pm

July 30th, 2010, 2:08 pm #4

Such a "proof" will never happen, I do believe. And those who put forth "proofs" really aren't proving anything, when examined in detail - either for or against the existence of God.

However, that does not mean God doesn't exist, imho. From what I can tell, God must be experienced. It is not an intellectual or emotional exercise in any fashion. Those who have never experienced it cannot know what it means, what it's like, or what it is, unfortunately. It would be like a male "knowing" what giving birth is like; we can imagine & project ourselves into the situation, but truly "knowing" is just not possible. Or a female "knowing" what getting hit "in the package" is like. (Sorry I couldn't think of a better thing that a female would never understand.)

We can all share anecdotes, find commonalities in our experiences, and even convince each other that we have experienced God. But the truth is, we can't really "prove" anything about it.

It seems to me that this is the reality of things, as far as I can tell. It seems interesting that both ardent believers and ardent non-believers refuse to accept that and want to put forth a "proof".

And the honest truth is... I find the utmost grace, divinity, and comfort in the way things are.

Random thoughts & ramblings while I'm waiting for a conference call.
...exactly right.

Discussions to "prove" the existence of God spin like a merry-go-round, and we always end up right back where we started, and sometimes it all sounds like a Monty Python skit...

"God is real -- he speaks through the Bible, it is His Holy Word."
"No it isn't, it's just a book, like the Qu'ran, or the Book of Mormon, or the Rig Veda. Or the Yellow Pages."

"Look, here is a picture of Jesus..."
"No, it isn't, that's some light-skinned blue-eyed 16th-century European, not a carpenter/rabbi from ancient Palestine."

"Here, listen to this song about God, that will convince you..."
"And here's a song for you -- 'Here comes Santa Claus, here comes Santa Claus, right down Santa Claus lane...'"

To quote Geddy Lee (because I don't speak French): Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Something to consider...the existence of God isn't supposed to be proven. Even in the Bible, hardly anyone actually saw or spoke with God -- God revealed himself to a chosen few, who then carried his message to the masses. Then God came down to earth as a human and walked among us, and most people didn't recognize him because God isn't supposed to look like one of us. Today, if God wanted to prove his existence, he could appear visibly, physically if he so chose, he could hold a press conference and it could be televised all over the world. Why doesn't he do that, and just end all of these debates? Either he doesn't exist, or he doesn't want to prove himself real, he wants it to be a matter of faith.

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Belief in God and what you believe about God is all about your own internal belief, your own faith. And there is no way that you can project that faith on to another person -- that has to be their own personal experience and understanding.






Last edited by kateothelamp on July 30th, 2010, 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

July 30th, 2010, 2:40 pm #5

Kate you said....

Something to consider...the existence of God isn't supposed to be proven. Even in the Bible, hardly anyone actually saw or spoke with God -- God revealed himself to a chosen few, who then carried his message to the masses.

ME: he revealed himself to Abraham who became "father of many nations" meaning God wanted to give this experience that Abraham received to be the experience of "MANY" people; these would be called the descendants of Abraham (not blood but spiritual descendants): We know that the progression of people that had this experience were given names to show the progression of the experience:


hence, Issac (laughter) is when Abraham would experience receiving the SPIRIT (Messiah) from his own inner self and not just "above him" as in here today and gone tomorrow: God wanted to prepare this person that is called Abraham in the Bible (who knows what is human name was), for the EVENTUAL PERMANANT OPENING OF HIS CONSCIOUSNESS TO GOD; this is why God told him after he received Isaac that he had to give him back to God to walk perfect before God:

this is why people who receive CHRIST have to give CHRIST back to GOD to walk perfectly before God now: It is one thing to have Christ for yourself, but its another thing to GIVE CHRIST (your riches) back to God and follow HIM, instead of using the LIGHT for your own purposes and desires.



Kate you continue...

Then God came down to earth as a human and walked among us, and most people didn't recognize him because God isn't supposed to look like one of us.


ME: CHRIST always comes to earth WITHIN HIS PEOPLE, within those who are ABRAHAMS descendants and receive the "SEED" (WORD, CHRIST), not seeds, but ONE SEED, the ONLY SEED, over and over hence, the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON:

this is why somene who has received that SEED can be right in front of you and you don't believe them: they don't LOOK like they have MESSIAH in them or that they are JESUS: They look like JOE SHMO that you knew since you were a kid:


Kate you continue...

Today, if God wanted to prove his existence, he could appear visibly, physically if he so chose, he could hold a press conference and it could be televised all over the world.

ME: HE DOES THIS IN HIS PEOPLE, hence, he appears to and IN HIS SAINTS, those who are ready to receive him as Abaraham was and do what Abraham did: Now, the process of Israel is that before Isaac dies, he gives birth to "TWO", Esau and Jacob (TWIN SELVES) that are both part of Isaac who is part of Abraham: These are the DUAL NATURES after Christ, the division of evil and good within us: the division between the carnal mind (Esau-hunter in the field/world) and SOUL (Jacob/Israel); ONE part of us is made for the birthright, to bring forth another level of CHRIST being formed into MAN (whose name will be JESUS) and the other is not:
It is written 14 generations from Abraham till David (THE NEW WILL in us), 14 from David to Babylon (CONFUSION between the two states in us) and 14 from DAVID to CHRIST (THE FINAL CORRECTION of our soul):


Kate ....
Why doesn't he do that, and just end all of these debates? Either he doesn't exist, or he doesn't want to prove himself real, he wants it to be a matter of faith.

ME: it all begins and ends with faith indeed. God authors faith in us as a "seed' of light, life and love and then he FINISHES our faith when we are ready to receive the 'FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD" in us: WE can't give this experience away anymore than we could give a HARVARD EDUCATION away to someone else:


Kate...

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Belief in God and what you believe about God is all about your own internal belief, your own faith. And there is no way that you can project that faith on to another person -- that has to be their own personal experience and understanding.


ME: yes, its all about US and GOD, but we are then supposed to be that LIGHT for others, and why? So we can give them our EXPERIENCE??

does a Harvard graduate give someone else his education? NO!! but he can help in the area of his expertise that he went to school for:

same with those who have that CONVERSION that can help those who come after them:
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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Joined: January 13th, 2010, 2:50 pm

July 30th, 2010, 11:15 pm #6

...exactly right.

Discussions to "prove" the existence of God spin like a merry-go-round, and we always end up right back where we started, and sometimes it all sounds like a Monty Python skit...

"God is real -- he speaks through the Bible, it is His Holy Word."
"No it isn't, it's just a book, like the Qu'ran, or the Book of Mormon, or the Rig Veda. Or the Yellow Pages."

"Look, here is a picture of Jesus..."
"No, it isn't, that's some light-skinned blue-eyed 16th-century European, not a carpenter/rabbi from ancient Palestine."

"Here, listen to this song about God, that will convince you..."
"And here's a song for you -- 'Here comes Santa Claus, here comes Santa Claus, right down Santa Claus lane...'"

To quote Geddy Lee (because I don't speak French): Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Something to consider...the existence of God isn't supposed to be proven. Even in the Bible, hardly anyone actually saw or spoke with God -- God revealed himself to a chosen few, who then carried his message to the masses. Then God came down to earth as a human and walked among us, and most people didn't recognize him because God isn't supposed to look like one of us. Today, if God wanted to prove his existence, he could appear visibly, physically if he so chose, he could hold a press conference and it could be televised all over the world. Why doesn't he do that, and just end all of these debates? Either he doesn't exist, or he doesn't want to prove himself real, he wants it to be a matter of faith.

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Belief in God and what you believe about God is all about your own internal belief, your own faith. And there is no way that you can project that faith on to another person -- that has to be their own personal experience and understanding.





I'm reluctant to call it "exactly right" though, for reasons I'm sure you understand.

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Joined: April 17th, 2006, 10:37 pm

July 31st, 2010, 12:04 am #7

Well, I see it as "exactly right" because I agree with what you wrote...if I agree, then of course I think you are right! LOL

I mentioned to Mondo below that I have a cat. I outlined some of her health problems, and gave a little hint of her personality.

Her name is Chloe. She is huge and black with white tuxedo markings. She has an attitude and a half. I think she has some form of kitty autism because 90% of the time she wants to be near us, but doesn't want us to interact with her in any way. She doesn't want us to look at her or talk to her or touch her, but she will lay on the floor at my feet. But for the first ten minutes of every day, she is super affectionate to us -- walks all over us in bed, purring, kneading the covers, rubbing her face on us. My husband calls that her "jellybean minute" because it's just about the only time she is sweet. Then she goes back to being aloof and snotty for the rest of the day.

So...I told you all about my cat. Do you believe in her?

I could post a picture of her for you. But then again, that could be any old cat I found a picture of on the internet.

I could put her in a cat carrier, and bring her to your house and show you. But then again, she could be somebody else's cat, not mine, and I just borrowed her.

I could have other people witness to you that, yes, indeed, Chloe is my cat. But then again, they could be lying. Or just as deluded as I am.

So...there is really no way for me to prove to you that I own this cat. You will either believe in her, or you won't. =)

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Joined: April 17th, 2006, 10:37 pm

July 31st, 2010, 1:48 am #8

Kate you said....

Something to consider...the existence of God isn't supposed to be proven. Even in the Bible, hardly anyone actually saw or spoke with God -- God revealed himself to a chosen few, who then carried his message to the masses.

ME: he revealed himself to Abraham who became "father of many nations" meaning God wanted to give this experience that Abraham received to be the experience of "MANY" people; these would be called the descendants of Abraham (not blood but spiritual descendants): We know that the progression of people that had this experience were given names to show the progression of the experience:


hence, Issac (laughter) is when Abraham would experience receiving the SPIRIT (Messiah) from his own inner self and not just "above him" as in here today and gone tomorrow: God wanted to prepare this person that is called Abraham in the Bible (who knows what is human name was), for the EVENTUAL PERMANANT OPENING OF HIS CONSCIOUSNESS TO GOD; this is why God told him after he received Isaac that he had to give him back to God to walk perfect before God:

this is why people who receive CHRIST have to give CHRIST back to GOD to walk perfectly before God now: It is one thing to have Christ for yourself, but its another thing to GIVE CHRIST (your riches) back to God and follow HIM, instead of using the LIGHT for your own purposes and desires.



Kate you continue...

Then God came down to earth as a human and walked among us, and most people didn't recognize him because God isn't supposed to look like one of us.


ME: CHRIST always comes to earth WITHIN HIS PEOPLE, within those who are ABRAHAMS descendants and receive the "SEED" (WORD, CHRIST), not seeds, but ONE SEED, the ONLY SEED, over and over hence, the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON:

this is why somene who has received that SEED can be right in front of you and you don't believe them: they don't LOOK like they have MESSIAH in them or that they are JESUS: They look like JOE SHMO that you knew since you were a kid:


Kate you continue...

Today, if God wanted to prove his existence, he could appear visibly, physically if he so chose, he could hold a press conference and it could be televised all over the world.

ME: HE DOES THIS IN HIS PEOPLE, hence, he appears to and IN HIS SAINTS, those who are ready to receive him as Abaraham was and do what Abraham did: Now, the process of Israel is that before Isaac dies, he gives birth to "TWO", Esau and Jacob (TWIN SELVES) that are both part of Isaac who is part of Abraham: These are the DUAL NATURES after Christ, the division of evil and good within us: the division between the carnal mind (Esau-hunter in the field/world) and SOUL (Jacob/Israel); ONE part of us is made for the birthright, to bring forth another level of CHRIST being formed into MAN (whose name will be JESUS) and the other is not:
It is written 14 generations from Abraham till David (THE NEW WILL in us), 14 from David to Babylon (CONFUSION between the two states in us) and 14 from DAVID to CHRIST (THE FINAL CORRECTION of our soul):


Kate ....
Why doesn't he do that, and just end all of these debates? Either he doesn't exist, or he doesn't want to prove himself real, he wants it to be a matter of faith.

ME: it all begins and ends with faith indeed. God authors faith in us as a "seed' of light, life and love and then he FINISHES our faith when we are ready to receive the 'FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD" in us: WE can't give this experience away anymore than we could give a HARVARD EDUCATION away to someone else:


Kate...

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Belief in God and what you believe about God is all about your own internal belief, your own faith. And there is no way that you can project that faith on to another person -- that has to be their own personal experience and understanding.


ME: yes, its all about US and GOD, but we are then supposed to be that LIGHT for others, and why? So we can give them our EXPERIENCE??

does a Harvard graduate give someone else his education? NO!! but he can help in the area of his expertise that he went to school for:

same with those who have that CONVERSION that can help those who come after them:
Yvonne...you seem like a very nice person. And you seem very spiritual, and like you really love God. And you are really trying hard to articulate your understanding of God. But...I have a really hard time comprehending most of what you write. Even if I read it 3 or 4 times. Maybe I'm just too carnal, or too literal, or too whatever I am. I'm no dummy, but I'm pretty practical and rooted in the ground. I think you are out in the cosmos somewhere, and I mean that in the nicest possible way =)

I'm trying to figure out: do you think the entire Bible is allegory, or is to be understood only metaphysically? Do you think any of the people mentioned in the Bible were real, actual, historical people? Or is it a combination of literal history and esoteric meanings? I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from, what the starting point is.

Sooooo...let's see. I get the part about us being spiritual descendants of Abraham. And I've always had issues with the idea that God would tell anyone for any reason to literally kill their own child (or anyone else for that matter). Taken literally, that whole concept is just so contrary to the very nature of God, as I understand God. But I can accept the story as allegory -- that God gives us wonderful gifts, the desires closest to our hearts, but we have to be willing to give them back to God. Even if it feels like a sacrifice to us, we give God what is most precious in our lives. And God doesn't take it away from us, even when we offer it back to him freely.

And I understand the concept that God -- the Holy Spirit -- dwells within us, and that is how we show God to others. We let our light so shine before men...

John 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

Romans 8:9-11 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.


However, the point I was making was pretty basic -- in the Bible, there are very few accounts of God showing any physical representation of himself (because God is Spirit, he is not tied to one physical form -- he could be in a burning bush, or a cloud, or a pillar of fire, or a dove, or...) And there are very few people to whom God speaks directly. If God wanted to prove his existence, God could do it. And he doesn't. So, why do some believers feel it is their duty to prove the existence of God -- or think that they even have the ability to do so?

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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

July 31st, 2010, 2:58 am #9

this wraps it up in a NUT shell for me:

to me the SPIRITUAL is not metaphor but the PHYSICAL is the metaphor for the spiritual, which is why it says...



Rom 1:20 For ((((the invisible things of him)))) from the creation of the world are (((clearly seen))), being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


but most of all.........

2Cr 4:16 ¶ For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet (((the inward [man] is renewed day by day)))).


2Cr 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding [and] eternal weight of glory;


2Cr 4:18 While ((((we look not at the things which are seen)))), but at the things which are [[[[not seen]]]]: for ((((the things which are seen [are] temporal)))); but {{{{{{the things which are not seen [are] eternal}}}}}.



to me the physical then is the METAPHOR of the SPIRITUAL, the REALITY or eternal of which the temporal is only an image, a shadow



but I understand HOW and WHY the carnal mind believes the shadow, or temporal are the real and the spiritual are the metaphor.....


I was that way too for 40 years
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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Joined: April 17th, 2006, 10:37 pm

July 31st, 2010, 3:38 am #10

Gives me a better idea where you're coming from =) Took me about 40 years to figure out what I believe, too. And I'm still figuring it out.
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