I watched this 2-hour video...

I watched this 2-hour video...

Joined: January 13th, 2010, 2:50 pm

February 21st, 2010, 10:53 pm #1


Is there historical proof that Jesus rose from the dead? A debate between Bart Erhman and William Lane Craig

It struck me as interesting that William Lane Craig wouldn't answer the questions. He was evasive and dodgey to some rather fair and obvious questions. Aren't there any "intellectually honest & credible" Christians anywhere?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhT4IENSwac

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Joined: December 8th, 2003, 1:16 am

February 21st, 2010, 11:29 pm #2

And I almost feel sorry for Christian apologists because they haven't got a chance. They have to contrive a cobweb of circular reasoning to even BEGIN to appear as though they have some legitimate basis for their claims.

Christians feel very "persecuted" by anyone who "raises doubts" ... and then begin to believe that the DEVIL is giving their opponents some kind of cleverness because the opponents always seem to know EXACTLY where to pounce.

I remember myself -back in the days when I was trying to be an apologist- getting super annoyed by the relentless attacks of unbelievers. I remarked one time, that they were just doing an extremely easy thing by coming to Christian forums ... like shooting fish in a barrel.

Well ... that's just the thing ...

It WOULDN'T be so easy IF the Christian doctrinal claims were actually true. Truth can't be destroyed by deconstruction, logic and reasoning. It only asserts itself more and more in the face of examination.

But a false premise? Ha .... it's a piece of cake. Every new examination destroys a lie even more.

-Vince
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Joined: March 4th, 2007, 4:09 pm

February 22nd, 2010, 12:29 am #3

Is there historical proof that Jesus rose from the dead? A debate between Bart Erhman and William Lane Craig

It struck me as interesting that William Lane Craig wouldn't answer the questions. He was evasive and dodgey to some rather fair and obvious questions. Aren't there any "intellectually honest & credible" Christians anywhere?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhT4IENSwac
The whole debate as a Single Video...!
And I watched it as a 12 parter...
-- Ten Minutes at a time.

Oh yeah...
If there's a more difficult way to go about it...
-- I'll Take THAT Route...
-- Every Time...!

Yes, I agree with your summation.
-- Evasive...
-- Dodgey...
-- Intellectually Dishonest...
And...
-- Entirely lacking in Credibility.

Hmmmmm...
You know...
You could pretty much tack that description...
-- Onto most of the "christians" on the Net.

-PRev1-
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Joined: December 8th, 2003, 1:16 am

February 22nd, 2010, 1:54 am #4

Sheesh. I watched it in something like 12 separate pieces. The acoustics were terrible too. I think this one is a little more bearable for the ears.

-Vince
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Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

February 22nd, 2010, 3:23 am #5

Is there historical proof that Jesus rose from the dead? A debate between Bart Erhman and William Lane Craig

It struck me as interesting that William Lane Craig wouldn't answer the questions. He was evasive and dodgey to some rather fair and obvious questions. Aren't there any "intellectually honest & credible" Christians anywhere?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhT4IENSwac
That's a frightening truth. Or a startling truth. Or an enlightening truth.

Ya know, you'll see it trashed by certain segments, but there is a reason the Emergent Church is attractive to people with reasoning abilities.

Now this is from a hit piece on the Emergent Church:
For example, because experience is valued more highly than reason, truth becomes relative. Relativism opens up all kinds of problems, as it destroys the standard that the Bible contains absolute truth, negating the belief that biblical truth can be absolute. If the Bible is not our source for absolute truth, and personal experience is allowed to define and interpret what truth actually is, a saving faith in Jesus Christ is rendered meaningless.
Now, the last sentence, is a non sequitur, does not necessarily follow from the previous sentences.

Biblical truth isn't absolute. A church that can recognize that can be relevant to people that want to use their minds, and don't distrust that great gift of God, the intellect.

I digress. William Lane Craig is as good as an apologist for the Fundy Church that you will find.

When I was in a quasi-Christian phase I discovered Alvin Plantinga. Not as popular as Craig, but a philosopher, and a Christian.

Here's a page with some writing from Christian philosophers, if you have an interest. I've read some Plantinga and Kelly James Clark. I recall being told CS Lewis was good, but I found him unreadable, as I did the whole Purpose Driven stuff, and Lee Strobel. Most, perhaps all, Christian apologetics and philosophy is only convincing to those already convinced.




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Joined: January 13th, 2010, 2:50 pm

February 22nd, 2010, 3:43 am #6


I don't agree with Erhman's conclusion on God per se. However, his work & research has unraveled a lot of problems - fundies seem to argue the opposite for rather obvious reasons.

With all the inconsistencies, it shows that the meaning is more important than the words. That what is "written on the hearts of men" is truly "The Word", and the bible is a book written & translated by people full of errors and inconsistencies that parallel the foibles of mankind. A special book that contains a lot of guidance and wisdom, but still a book. And "The Word" that it does capture, truly is "The Word of God"... But not in literal meaning that is preached by the fundies. But instead: don't kill, don't lie, don't steal, don't cheat, be honest, be fair, be compassionate, be patient, make peace with people, etc... Those are the undeniable lessons written on hearts of people.

Those that need the "absolute meaning" seem to be the "pharisee types" with their faith locked into the specific language in a book. Nothing more than religious lawyers with their faith placed in a book of all things. These folks look to be prisoners bound by their lack of faith in God.

"The truth shall set you free" and "Ask, and ye shall receive" the teachings go. Rather profound that they are taught in the book that people cling to and get stuck worshiping and miss the lesson.

It amazes me how many people run from facts and the truth.
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Joined: March 8th, 2007, 6:53 am

February 22nd, 2010, 3:51 am #7

The whole debate as a Single Video...!
And I watched it as a 12 parter...
-- Ten Minutes at a time.

Oh yeah...
If there's a more difficult way to go about it...
-- I'll Take THAT Route...
-- Every Time...!

Yes, I agree with your summation.
-- Evasive...
-- Dodgey...
-- Intellectually Dishonest...
And...
-- Entirely lacking in Credibility.

Hmmmmm...
You know...
You could pretty much tack that description...
-- Onto most of the "christians" on the Net.

-PRev1-
stop you from continuing discussions with them...does it?

that too seems very intellectually disahonest imv.
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Joined: January 13th, 2010, 2:50 pm

February 22nd, 2010, 3:55 am #8

And I almost feel sorry for Christian apologists because they haven't got a chance. They have to contrive a cobweb of circular reasoning to even BEGIN to appear as though they have some legitimate basis for their claims.

Christians feel very "persecuted" by anyone who "raises doubts" ... and then begin to believe that the DEVIL is giving their opponents some kind of cleverness because the opponents always seem to know EXACTLY where to pounce.

I remember myself -back in the days when I was trying to be an apologist- getting super annoyed by the relentless attacks of unbelievers. I remarked one time, that they were just doing an extremely easy thing by coming to Christian forums ... like shooting fish in a barrel.

Well ... that's just the thing ...

It WOULDN'T be so easy IF the Christian doctrinal claims were actually true. Truth can't be destroyed by deconstruction, logic and reasoning. It only asserts itself more and more in the face of examination.

But a false premise? Ha .... it's a piece of cake. Every new examination destroys a lie even more.

-Vince
I feel sorry for folks that are "stuck", too. What if those folks really "need" their beliefs to hold their sanity together? I know lots of dysfunctional people with various addictions that escaped their affliction by leveraging a very structured & disciplined take on religion. It's kind of like trading one addiction for another, however it is really much more positive.

For those folks, they are truly "saved" by religion. But they are also locked into it as well. Does it really help them to show them "reality"?

Again... I struggle with this one.
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Joined: December 8th, 2003, 1:16 am

February 22nd, 2010, 5:11 am #9

Because I've had those same conflicts.

I certainly wouldn't want to be destroying anyone's faith in .... shall we say ... "life." If Jesus is ALL that someone is living for, who am I and what am I trying to do ... by knocking out that person's foundation? Isn't it better for someone to hang on to something at least ... than absolutely nothing?

Conversely, what if someone is an alcoholic? If I take his alcohol away, what ELSE has he got to live for? Is it fair to knock his crutch out from under him? What am I TAKING AWAY from the alcoholic by taking away his bottle(s)?

What am I taking away from a Christian believer by exposing him to the truth?

Well, exactly what IS IT about Jesus that keeps the Jesuaholic going? Is it the belief in Jesus' existence only? Or is it something else? If it's something MORE than the existence of Jesus, just what is that something else?

What does the Christian believer believe about Jesus? That Jesus loves him and forgives his sins?

Well what if I can convince the Christian believer that he doesn't NEED any forgiveness because he's already a complete human being with full potential to experience life just as abundantly as an atheist. What if I can convince him that he is ALREADY a loveable human being who merely needs to open up and CONNECT with others in order to experience the connection of God?

I know that from my own experience, I had a revolutionary awakening when I started to attend a support group for people who have/had problems with being violent. This was a totally secular group where -in fact- the Bible was discouraged from being brought into the discussions. (Believe me, I tried!~). So, okay, I respected their rules and refrained from putting my beliefs forward.

Over the months though, I found myself so totally "fulfilled" in this group, I began to wonder what in tarnashin was a goin on anyway? I was seeing EXACTLY what I'd always looked for in church fellowship .... being demonstrated right there in that secular setting! I realized then, that what Christian believers are ACTUALLY longing for is TRUE and honest CONNECTION with others. They don't want the pleasantries or the fake happiness or the religious platitudes -(which they already know instinctively are faked)- to pump them up temporarily; they want to know that others are real and are sharing themselves in reality and truth.

Ok so ... that's what Christian believers are wanting in all honesty. They want connection and honesty from others. But what about themselves?

Well, I think this is the real litmus test of where their belief is at and what they expect FROM it.

For those who are self-centered and are looking to GET ...

A bottle of booze is about the same as their own personal faith. Either one of them allow an artificial escape from reality and give them a false sense of worth.

For Christian believers who've grasped the concept of extension and empathy -who understand that other human beings are every bit as important as themself- it won't matter one bit whether anyone tries to "undermine" their faith by exposing the truth about the falseness of the Bible ... because .... they aren't into it for selfish reasons in the first place. They already instinctively "know" and feel that ... "God" means connection with other humans, life and nature.

So getting back to your question ....

Is it justified to knock out the crutches of selfish people?

I don't think so. If they don't have their crutches, they'll have to find some other way of getting around, won't they? Maybe they'll "grow" as a result.

Besides, selfishness is destructive ... not only to self but to others too.

When I see Christians vacant-mindedly supporting the bombing, killing and maiming of other human beings simply because they never give a thought to the rightness of their own country's agenda ... I quickly lose all feelings of guilt for attacking their beliefs. They deserve to be heavily clouted about their ears. At LEAST they should take the time to THINK about right and wrong in terms of spiritual extension to other humans.

So no ... in the final analysis, you can't hurt someone by exposing them to the truth. They may have "uncomfortable" feelings about it but in the long run, they'll get over that and possibly ... even become better human beings for it.

-Vince

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Joined: March 4th, 2007, 4:09 pm

February 22nd, 2010, 11:05 am #10

stop you from continuing discussions with them...does it?

that too seems very intellectually disahonest imv.
It's like children playing in the schoolyard...
They're having fun...
But...
They're getting a little exercise at the same time.

And, the "christians"...
Are like the slower kids...
Who try like heck to keep up...
But...
They lose at every game they play.

Every now and then...
-- One of them starts to cry...
And...
-- Runs away.

It's good for them...
-- It builds Character.

-PRev1-

President Barrack Hussein Obama

-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --
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