How one thing can lead to another...

How one thing can lead to another...

Joined: March 4th, 2007, 4:09 pm

May 24th, 2012, 4:34 pm #1

The Internet is quite the remarkable place.
All intertwined and intricately connected...
In such a way that...
One thing leads to another...
And, the next thing you know...
You've travelled from one end of the Spectrum...
-- To the Other.

And, that's how reading an article from Outreach Magazine...
Led me to the Homepage of Christianity Disproved...
And, eventually...
To this excellent "rant" about Jesus...
By The Great Agnostic...
-- Robert G. Ingersoll, (August 11, 1833 July 21, 1899).
<blockquote> Jesus was not God

If Christ was in fact God, he knew all the future.

Before him like a panorama moved the history yet to be. He knew how his words would be interpreted. He knew what crimes, what horrors, what infamies, would be committed in his name. He knew that the hungry flames of persecution would climb around the limbs of countless martyrs. He knew that thousands and thousands of brave men and women would languish in dungeons in darkness, filled with pain. He knew that his church would invent and use instruments of torture; that his followers would appeal to whip and fagot, to chain and rack. He saw the horizon of the future lurid with the flames of the auto-da-fê. He knew what creeds would spring like poisonous fungi from every text. He saw the ignorant sects waging war against each other. He saw thousands of men, under the orders of priests, building prisons for their fellow-men. He saw thousands of scaffolds dripping with the best and bravest blood. He saw his followers using the instruments of pain. He heard the groanssaw the faces white with agony. He heard the shrieks and sobs and cries of all the moaning, martyred multitudes. He knew that commentaries would be written on his words with swords, to be read by the light of fagots. He knew that the Inquisition would be born of the teachings attributed to him.

He saw the interpolations and falsehoods that hypocrisy would write and tell. He saw all wars that would be waged, and he knew that above these fields of death, these dungeons, these rackings, these burnings, these executions, for a thousand years would float the dripping banner of the cross.

He knew that hypocrisy would be robed and crownedthat cruelty and credulity would rule the world; knew that liberty would perish from the earth; knew that popes and kings in his name would enslave the souls and bodies of men; knew that they would persecute and destroy the discoverers, thinkers and inventors; knew that his church would extinguish reason's holy light and leave the world without a star.

He saw his disciples extinguishing the eyes of men, flaying them alive, cutting out their tongues, searching for all the nerves of pain.

He knew that in his name his followers would trade in human flesh; that cradles would be robbed and women's breasts unbabed for gold.

And yet he died with voiceless lips.

Why did he fail to speak? Why did he not tell his disciples, and through them the world: "You shall not burn, imprison and torture in my name. You shall not persecute your fellow-men."

Why did he not plainly say: "I am the Son of God," or, "I am God?" Why did he not explain the Trinity? Why did he not tell the mode of baptism that was pleasing to him? Why did he not write a creed? Why did he not break the chains of slaves? Why did he not say that the Old Testament was or was not the inspired word of God? Why did he not write the New Testament himself? Why did he leave his words to ignorance, hypocrisy and chance? Why did he not say something positive, definite and satisfactory about another world? Why did he not turn the tear-stained hope of heaven into the glad knowledge of another life? Why did he not tell us something of the rights of man, of the liberty of hand and brain?

Why did he go dumbly to his death, leaving the world to misery and to doubt?

I will tell you why. He was a man, and did not know.
-- (Ingersoll 1894)
A most logical conclusion, indeed.

-PRev1-
</blockquote>

President Barrack Hussein Obama

-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --


"If you suddenly think Stephen Colbert is truly right wing, that's when I would worry."
-- Neuropsychologist Katherine Rankin.
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Iceman
Iceman

May 24th, 2012, 6:31 pm #2

First off: No proof of either a Jesus or a Christ ever existing. So Mr. Ingersolls discussion is moot.
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Joined: March 4th, 2007, 4:09 pm

May 24th, 2012, 9:10 pm #3

Saying that Jesus wasn't God...
But, was Just a Man...
Would have been "controversial" enough.

As for "proof" for the existence of Jesus...
Well...
The Church has only itself to blame for that.
After all...
Their own historical records show that...
They're the ones who gathered it all up...
And... Set it aflame.

So, if the man never existed...
What, pray tell...
Were they burning...?

-PRev1-

President Barrack Hussein Obama

-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --


"If you suddenly think Stephen Colbert is truly right wing, that's when I would worry."
-- Neuropsychologist Katherine Rankin.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: December 8th, 2003, 1:16 am

May 24th, 2012, 9:28 pm #4

The Internet is quite the remarkable place.
All intertwined and intricately connected...
In such a way that...
One thing leads to another...
And, the next thing you know...
You've travelled from one end of the Spectrum...
-- To the Other.

And, that's how reading an article from Outreach Magazine...
Led me to the Homepage of Christianity Disproved...
And, eventually...
To this excellent "rant" about Jesus...
By The Great Agnostic...
-- Robert G. Ingersoll, (August 11, 1833 July 21, 1899).
<blockquote> Jesus was not God

If Christ was in fact God, he knew all the future.

Before him like a panorama moved the history yet to be. He knew how his words would be interpreted. He knew what crimes, what horrors, what infamies, would be committed in his name. He knew that the hungry flames of persecution would climb around the limbs of countless martyrs. He knew that thousands and thousands of brave men and women would languish in dungeons in darkness, filled with pain. He knew that his church would invent and use instruments of torture; that his followers would appeal to whip and fagot, to chain and rack. He saw the horizon of the future lurid with the flames of the auto-da-fê. He knew what creeds would spring like poisonous fungi from every text. He saw the ignorant sects waging war against each other. He saw thousands of men, under the orders of priests, building prisons for their fellow-men. He saw thousands of scaffolds dripping with the best and bravest blood. He saw his followers using the instruments of pain. He heard the groanssaw the faces white with agony. He heard the shrieks and sobs and cries of all the moaning, martyred multitudes. He knew that commentaries would be written on his words with swords, to be read by the light of fagots. He knew that the Inquisition would be born of the teachings attributed to him.

He saw the interpolations and falsehoods that hypocrisy would write and tell. He saw all wars that would be waged, and he knew that above these fields of death, these dungeons, these rackings, these burnings, these executions, for a thousand years would float the dripping banner of the cross.

He knew that hypocrisy would be robed and crownedthat cruelty and credulity would rule the world; knew that liberty would perish from the earth; knew that popes and kings in his name would enslave the souls and bodies of men; knew that they would persecute and destroy the discoverers, thinkers and inventors; knew that his church would extinguish reason's holy light and leave the world without a star.

He saw his disciples extinguishing the eyes of men, flaying them alive, cutting out their tongues, searching for all the nerves of pain.

He knew that in his name his followers would trade in human flesh; that cradles would be robbed and women's breasts unbabed for gold.

And yet he died with voiceless lips.

Why did he fail to speak? Why did he not tell his disciples, and through them the world: "You shall not burn, imprison and torture in my name. You shall not persecute your fellow-men."

Why did he not plainly say: "I am the Son of God," or, "I am God?" Why did he not explain the Trinity? Why did he not tell the mode of baptism that was pleasing to him? Why did he not write a creed? Why did he not break the chains of slaves? Why did he not say that the Old Testament was or was not the inspired word of God? Why did he not write the New Testament himself? Why did he leave his words to ignorance, hypocrisy and chance? Why did he not say something positive, definite and satisfactory about another world? Why did he not turn the tear-stained hope of heaven into the glad knowledge of another life? Why did he not tell us something of the rights of man, of the liberty of hand and brain?

Why did he go dumbly to his death, leaving the world to misery and to doubt?

I will tell you why. He was a man, and did not know.
-- (Ingersoll 1894)
A most logical conclusion, indeed.

-PRev1-
</blockquote>

President Barrack Hussein Obama

-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --


"If you suddenly think Stephen Colbert is truly right wing, that's when I would worry."
-- Neuropsychologist Katherine Rankin.
Jesus the man ... was a composite character created in hindsight to FULFILL expectations. He was never Christ; he was more like William Tell.

The "Jesus Christ" of the NTestament -(outside of the 4 Gospels)- was an ANTICIPATED character who dwelt in the heavenlies (as a god or spirit) and was expected to appear and be a man ... but never materialized as a man. The 4 Gospels were then constructed (much later) to make it appear that he HAD materialized.

So when people talk about a "Christ consciousness" ... it's quite possible that this phenomenon exist today, just as it did for the NTestament writers about 2000 years ago. When you talk about affixing that phenomenon to a real person who supposedly lived 2000 years ago ... you're on the wrong track.

-Vince
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Joined: December 8th, 2003, 1:16 am

May 24th, 2012, 9:43 pm #5

Saying that Jesus wasn't God...
But, was Just a Man...
Would have been "controversial" enough.

As for "proof" for the existence of Jesus...
Well...
The Church has only itself to blame for that.
After all...
Their own historical records show that...
They're the ones who gathered it all up...
And... Set it aflame.

So, if the man never existed...
What, pray tell...
Were they burning...?

-PRev1-

President Barrack Hussein Obama

-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --


"If you suddenly think Stephen Colbert is truly right wing, that's when I would worry."
-- Neuropsychologist Katherine Rankin.
the "heretical" versions of written impressions about this character.

Remember ...

He was entirely an ANTICIPATED figure. You can see that all through the NTestament (except for the 4 Gospels and a wee bit at the beginning of Acts).

He was anticipated, based on hope and based on interpretation of OTestament scriptures which were perceived WITHIN their hope.

The NTestament epistles never Once talk about his returning; they always talk about his appearing or being revealed.

And the NTestament writings never refer to the Gospels as a source. They refer to OTestament writings.

But ...

As people do, when they anticipate and concentrate on their anticipation ...

MANY of them started to FIND their own Jesus characters! There were something like 52 "gospels" written on Jesus.

The problem with these "first hand accounts" is that they didn't jibe or agree with each other. That caused some "concern" amongst the church elite. They had to round up all the gospels/stories and DESTROY them -save for the ones which- supported their own viewpoint/doctrine. They settled on 4 "best of" versions and presented those 4 ... and even then, the 4 contradict each other considerably.

You can see a similar pattern occurring today amongst the "knowing" new age or UFO believers. They have some remarkable knowledge! The problem is ... their knowledge doesn't correlate well with other experts' knowledge ... and so they remain (quite a bit) ... in disagreement on their "facts."

-Vince
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Joined: October 1st, 2006, 10:04 am

May 25th, 2012, 6:12 am #6

Saying that Jesus wasn't God...
But, was Just a Man...
Would have been "controversial" enough.

As for "proof" for the existence of Jesus...
Well...
The Church has only itself to blame for that.
After all...
Their own historical records show that...
They're the ones who gathered it all up...
And... Set it aflame.

So, if the man never existed...
What, pray tell...
Were they burning...?

-PRev1-

President Barrack Hussein Obama

-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --


"If you suddenly think Stephen Colbert is truly right wing, that's when I would worry."
-- Neuropsychologist Katherine Rankin.


How much has been lost to us...



Thankfully, we have the Library Within.

Love
Jackie




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Tim
Tim

May 25th, 2012, 6:17 am #7

the "heretical" versions of written impressions about this character.

Remember ...

He was entirely an ANTICIPATED figure. You can see that all through the NTestament (except for the 4 Gospels and a wee bit at the beginning of Acts).

He was anticipated, based on hope and based on interpretation of OTestament scriptures which were perceived WITHIN their hope.

The NTestament epistles never Once talk about his returning; they always talk about his appearing or being revealed.

And the NTestament writings never refer to the Gospels as a source. They refer to OTestament writings.

But ...

As people do, when they anticipate and concentrate on their anticipation ...

MANY of them started to FIND their own Jesus characters! There were something like 52 "gospels" written on Jesus.

The problem with these "first hand accounts" is that they didn't jibe or agree with each other. That caused some "concern" amongst the church elite. They had to round up all the gospels/stories and DESTROY them -save for the ones which- supported their own viewpoint/doctrine. They settled on 4 "best of" versions and presented those 4 ... and even then, the 4 contradict each other considerably.

You can see a similar pattern occurring today amongst the "knowing" new age or UFO believers. They have some remarkable knowledge! The problem is ... their knowledge doesn't correlate well with other experts' knowledge ... and so they remain (quite a bit) ... in disagreement on their "facts."

-Vince
Error #1 You all keep claiming the Christian church is Roman Catholic.

Error #2 You assume the Vatican tells the truth about Christianity.

Error #3 You assume the Vatican is the mother of Christianity.

Error #4 your to lazy to search and learn the history.

Its sad to see thinking minds stopped by a vale of deception placed in 325 AD and perpetuated even to this day.

Your all smart men, but apparently not smarter then Romans 2,700 years ago.

You have my regards.

Tim
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Tim
Tim

May 25th, 2012, 6:21 am #8



How much has been lost to us...



Thankfully, we have the Library Within.

Love
Jackie




They were afraid the truth would uncover them.
Because the RCC is a lie, and its Babylonian and not Christian.


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Tim
Tim

May 25th, 2012, 6:27 am #9

Jesus the man ... was a composite character created in hindsight to FULFILL expectations. He was never Christ; he was more like William Tell.

The "Jesus Christ" of the NTestament -(outside of the 4 Gospels)- was an ANTICIPATED character who dwelt in the heavenlies (as a god or spirit) and was expected to appear and be a man ... but never materialized as a man. The 4 Gospels were then constructed (much later) to make it appear that he HAD materialized.

So when people talk about a "Christ consciousness" ... it's quite possible that this phenomenon exist today, just as it did for the NTestament writers about 2000 years ago. When you talk about affixing that phenomenon to a real person who supposedly lived 2000 years ago ... you're on the wrong track.

-Vince
So when people talk about a "Christ consciousness" ... it's quite possible that this phenomenon exist today, just as it did for the NTestament writers about 2000 years ago. When you talk about affixing that phenomenon to a real person who supposedly lived 2000 years ago ... you're on the wrong track.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

No Vince, that's wrong.
And Biblicaly Jesus was appearing as being GOD in the OT.
But in the NT Jesus is revealed as being the Son of God.
The Bible has nothing to do with Yvonne and Roy doctrine.

Tim
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Joined: December 8th, 2003, 1:16 am

May 25th, 2012, 7:16 am #10

Error #1 You all keep claiming the Christian church is Roman Catholic.

Error #2 You assume the Vatican tells the truth about Christianity.

Error #3 You assume the Vatican is the mother of Christianity.

Error #4 your to lazy to search and learn the history.

Its sad to see thinking minds stopped by a vale of deception placed in 325 AD and perpetuated even to this day.

Your all smart men, but apparently not smarter then Romans 2,700 years ago.

You have my regards.

Tim
It's YOU who doesn't understand.

EVERYTHING we have in the form of the "Holy Bible" ... came from/through the Catholic Church.

The oldest NTestament manuscripts in existence ... date back to the 4th century only. There are only 2 of them ... if memory serves me correctly.

These manuscripts are very different from the myriad of manuscripts which were produced later. The earliest ones DISAGREE with each other so much ... that they're said to be "corrupted".~ The ones that agree with each other are the later "revisions" ... of course.

There are writings from church fathers which predate the 4th century but NOTHING of NTestament manuscript writings.

So what does this indicate?

The church "cleaned up" the old writings by rewriting them ... and then threw the old ones away.

-Vince

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