Joined: 10:37 PM - Apr 17, 2006

4:54 AM - Apr 30, 2012 #21

Shows a rather Personal bias towards "Eternal Personification".
Why not...
-- "What WAS" the Word...?

The Word was Logic...
-- The Reasoning Mind of the First Principle.

"The First Principle" is a Gnostic title for... "God".

Through the Logic of the Reasoning Mind...
The First Principle created the Physicality...
In which, "WE" perceive our life essence to "BE".

As for the NT rendering of Logos as "He"...
That...
Is simply because, unlike English...
Greek nouns are gender specific.
They are Male, Female or Neutral...
And...
-- Logos is a Masculine Noun.

<blockquote>Strong's Greek 3056 -- Biblos.Com
logos: a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: logos
Phonetic Spelling: (log'-os)
Short Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy
Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.


3056 lógos (from 3004 /lég, "speaking to a conclusion") a word, being the expression of a thought; a saying. 3056 /lógos ("word") is preeminently used of Christ (Jn 1:1), expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit.

[3056 (lógos) is a common term (used 330 times in the NT) with regards to a person sharing a message (discourse, "communication-speech"). 3056 (lógos) is a broad term meaning "reasoning expressed by words."]
And so...
Feeling led by the "Spirit"...
Jesus shared his message...
In the manner of discourse...
-- "communication-speech"...
Jesus expressed what we have been led to believe are...
The "thoughts" of "God", "The First Principle"...
The "Spiritual Father" of the Physicality...
Of which, WE...
-- Are but a tiny part.

And...
While doing so...
Jesus was just a man...
-- Like any other.

-PRev1-
</blockquote>

President Barrack Hussein Obama

-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --


"If you suddenly think Stephen Colbert is truly right wing, that's when I would worry."
-- Neuropsychologist Katherine Rankin.
I'm okay with either. With both, actually. =)

En arch n ho Lógos, kai ho Lógos n pros ton Theón, kai Theós n ho Lógos.

The Word, the Logos...reason, saying, logic. Was with God from the very beginning, and was God; all things were made through the Word.

In the creation account in Genesis, everything was created by the Word of God. God speaks, it comes into into being, and then God names it.

God said "Let there be light"...God called the light Day and the darkness Night.
God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters"...God called the expanse Heaven.
God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"...God called the dry land Earth and the waters the Seas.

Since I do not believe God is an old, bearded man on a throne, but a vast and infinite spirit being, the description you gave of the Word makes perfect sense to me. Before Jesus existed as a human being on earth, I believe he was spirit, that he was with God and that he was God.

The rest of the passage tells us that John was sent by God to be a witness for the Word, the Word came into the world but it would not receive him, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And vs. 18 identifies him as the only begotten Son of God -- monogenes heios. Some of the oldest manuscripts even identify him as monogenes theos -- the only begotten God.

PRev: And so...
Feeling led by the "Spirit"...
Jesus shared his message...
In the manner of discourse...
-- "communication-speech"...
Jesus expressed what we have been led to believe are...
The "thoughts" of "God", "The First Principle"...
The "Spiritual Father" of the Physicality...
Of which, WE...
-- Are but a tiny part.


Again, I don't disagree. Jesus was led by the Spirit of God in everything he said and did. I believe a big part of his purpose here on earth was to explain to us what God is really like and what God really wants -- we get so far off track, we did then, and we still do today.

I believe this is what he meant when he said, "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me...And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

"I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together." Lennon didn't realize he figured that part out. And probably while on LSD, go figure. =)

PRev: And...
While doing so...
Jesus was just a man...
-- Like any other.


Jesus was a man, most definitely. But..."just" a man, "like any other"? Now, on that...I'd have to disagree. But you knew I would, didn't you? =)

I'm not entirely sure exactly what the incarnation means, or that I could even understand it. Right now, my thoughts are that Jesus was a human being, flesh and blood like us, but the spirit within him was the Spirit of God -- the Holy Spirit -- and that was what made him unique, the only begotten Son of God. I don't know...still pondering this.

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Joined: 1:16 AM - Dec 08, 2003

6:27 AM - Apr 30, 2012 #22

why people tend to believe that icons have to be totally one way or another -perfectly good or perfectly bad.

Humans are always a mix of good stuff and not so good. The great heroes we "worship" ... always had some unsavory aspect to them as well. The history books just tend to omit these parts. I don't think Jesus -if he actually existed- was any different.

He disclosed to his disciples by parable ... that once they got into power, they would round up all of their enemies and kill them. He confided to them that they would simply allow the "weeds" to grow up along with the good wheat and then after the harvest when all the threshing was done ... the weeds would be burned and the chaff would be removed.

This isn't unusual thinking or planning by any would-be dictator of course but ... I question the logic in thinking that this kind of MO is any "holier" than the most evil ways. Is there not a REAL ... viable and perfect solution to the problem of opposition and interference which DOESN'T require violence? I'm sure GOD would HAVE some such perfect solution.

-Vince

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Joined: 10:37 PM - Apr 17, 2006

12:55 PM - Apr 30, 2012 #23

It's because you and I have a very different picture of who Jesus was, and what his message was, Vince. I don't think Jesus was just an "icon"; you do. And I've heard your interpretation of those parables, and do not agree with it at all.
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Pope Reverend I, BV
Pope Reverend I, BV

1:01 PM - Apr 30, 2012 #24

I'm okay with either. With both, actually. =)

En arch n ho Lógos, kai ho Lógos n pros ton Theón, kai Theós n ho Lógos.

The Word, the Logos...reason, saying, logic. Was with God from the very beginning, and was God; all things were made through the Word.

In the creation account in Genesis, everything was created by the Word of God. God speaks, it comes into into being, and then God names it.

God said "Let there be light"...God called the light Day and the darkness Night.
God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters"...God called the expanse Heaven.
God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"...God called the dry land Earth and the waters the Seas.

Since I do not believe God is an old, bearded man on a throne, but a vast and infinite spirit being, the description you gave of the Word makes perfect sense to me. Before Jesus existed as a human being on earth, I believe he was spirit, that he was with God and that he was God.

The rest of the passage tells us that John was sent by God to be a witness for the Word, the Word came into the world but it would not receive him, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And vs. 18 identifies him as the only begotten Son of God -- monogenes heios. Some of the oldest manuscripts even identify him as monogenes theos -- the only begotten God.

PRev: And so...
Feeling led by the "Spirit"...
Jesus shared his message...
In the manner of discourse...
-- "communication-speech"...
Jesus expressed what we have been led to believe are...
The "thoughts" of "God", "The First Principle"...
The "Spiritual Father" of the Physicality...
Of which, WE...
-- Are but a tiny part.


Again, I don't disagree. Jesus was led by the Spirit of God in everything he said and did. I believe a big part of his purpose here on earth was to explain to us what God is really like and what God really wants -- we get so far off track, we did then, and we still do today.

I believe this is what he meant when he said, "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me...And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

"I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together." Lennon didn't realize he figured that part out. And probably while on LSD, go figure. =)

PRev: And...
While doing so...
Jesus was just a man...
-- Like any other.


Jesus was a man, most definitely. But..."just" a man, "like any other"? Now, on that...I'd have to disagree. But you knew I would, didn't you? =)

I'm not entirely sure exactly what the incarnation means, or that I could even understand it. Right now, my thoughts are that Jesus was a human being, flesh and blood like us, but the spirit within him was the Spirit of God -- the Holy Spirit -- and that was what made him unique, the only begotten Son of God. I don't know...still pondering this.
St. John, the Liverpudlian.
-- "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together."

Moved by the Spirit...
He KNEW Exactly what he was saying.

Was LSD involved...?
Possibly...
After All...
It has long been the Tradition of Mystics among us...
To Achieve their Enlightened States of Consciousness...
Through the assistance of...
-- "Mind Altering" substances.
And...
As they say in certain Christian Circles...
-- The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways.

However...
Any "Mystery" regarding the "Sonship" of Jesus...
Is entirely the result of the misunderstanding...
Of Mere, Mortal Men.
And...
-- Gentile Men at that.

Jesus was the "Son" of God...
In precisely the same manner as David and Solomon were before him.

He was "Unique"...
Only in the fact that he was the Biological Product...
Of the Confluence of both the Priestly AND the Royal Bloodlines.
While David and Solomon were both Messianic Kings of Israel...
Jesus was the ONLY Messianic Priest/King.

And still...
He was...
Entirely Mortal...
Just like any other man.

-PRev1-
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Joined: 1:16 AM - Dec 08, 2003

7:10 PM - Apr 30, 2012 #25

It's because you and I have a very different picture of who Jesus was, and what his message was, Vince. I don't think Jesus was just an "icon"; you do. And I've heard your interpretation of those parables, and do not agree with it at all.
You could offer an explanation on Jesus' statement...

[But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.] -Luke 19:27

What POSSIBLE reason would he have had for saying that ... even IF it was a parable?

What message would that have conveyed to his disciples?

-Vince
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Pope Reverend I, BV
Pope Reverend I, BV

6:40 PM - May 01, 2012 #26

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Isaiah 44:24  24 This is what the LORD says
   your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
   I am the LORD,
   the Maker of all things,
   who stretches out the heavens,
   who spreads out the earth by myself,


But who was God speaking to at Creation?

Genesis 1:26  26 Then God said, Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, "

John 1:2-3 He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1:16-17 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.



You are merely promulgating...
The Gentile Perversion of Judaism...
-- after all, Jesus was a Jew.
And, Judaism is, in fact...
The Hebrew Perversion...
Of the Polytheistic Sumerian Religion...
-- let us not forget...
-- Abraham was Sumerian.

The References to Plurality...
Made by the "God" of the Old Testament...
Are acknowledgements of...
-- The Sumerian Pantheon.

Which, of course, would be perfectly clear...
If not for some 4000 years of religious obscurantism.

-PRev1-
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JVH
Joined: 1:33 PM - Jul 20, 2009

11:34 AM - May 02, 2012 #27

St. John, the Liverpudlian.
-- "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together."

Moved by the Spirit...
He KNEW Exactly what he was saying.

Was LSD involved...?
Possibly...
After All...
It has long been the Tradition of Mystics among us...
To Achieve their Enlightened States of Consciousness...
Through the assistance of...
-- "Mind Altering" substances.
And...
As they say in certain Christian Circles...
-- The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways.

However...
Any "Mystery" regarding the "Sonship" of Jesus...
Is entirely the result of the misunderstanding...
Of Mere, Mortal Men.
And...
-- Gentile Men at that.

Jesus was the "Son" of God...
In precisely the same manner as David and Solomon were before him.

He was "Unique"...
Only in the fact that he was the Biological Product...
Of the Confluence of both the Priestly AND the Royal Bloodlines.
While David and Solomon were both Messianic Kings of Israel...
Jesus was the ONLY Messianic Priest/King.

And still...
He was...
Entirely Mortal...
Just like any other man.

-PRev1-
 

... the dangers of screaming worshippers, especially in large groups, as St. John, St. Paul, St. George and St. Richard found out.......


rejected and denied by many, accepted and embraced by few : falsifiability
- it is not what we (think we) know that matters, it is what we can show true that does
as the maxim demands; truth is demonstrably fact and fact is demonstrably true
everything else ... mere BS -


New!! Improved!! Now With CD-Formula!!


CD: short for inevitability
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Joined: 10:37 PM - Apr 17, 2006

9:21 PM - May 02, 2012 #28

You could offer an explanation on Jesus' statement...

[But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.] -Luke 19:27

What POSSIBLE reason would he have had for saying that ... even IF it was a parable?

What message would that have conveyed to his disciples?

-Vince
It's not literal, it's a parable. Jesus was not implying or suggesting in any way at all for his disciples to literally kill anyone. That would completely contradict his message:

Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place;  for those who live by the sword, die by the sword.  Matthew 26:52

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth... Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy... Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.   Matt 5:5-9.

Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven..."  Matt 18:21-22

But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.   If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you?   For even sinners love those who love them.   And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you?  For even sinners do the same. Luke 6:27-32

And those are just a few examples; there are countless more.

Jesus knew that he was going to die, and had told the apostles closest to him repeatedly, but they did not want to hear or accept it. He told them he was going to the Father. Jesus never expected to reign here on earth as a military or political leader - he told them that too, but again they did not want to hear it.

The parable of the talents is about what will happen at the end of time. It's harshly worded, to be sure. But it's not an encoded message to Jesus' followers endorsing a Christian jihad.

Jesus told this parable to explain the Kingdom his followers were expecting was not immediate , but would be in the future:

"While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once." (19:11)

He spoke of a noble man who was going away to a distant country, and would one day return as king - speaking of his death, and eventual return to earth.

This nobleman left money - talents - with his servants, instructing them to "put this money to work until I come back" - Greek Greek pragmateuomai, "do business, trade.". The master entrusted a little to his servants to see who could be entrusted with more when he returns. Here, Jesus was not talking about literally giving his followers cash to invest. He had given them salvation, the message of God's love, the truth about what God wants for us and from us. All believers are entrusted with spiritual gifts, and we are to use them wisely, to invest them for the glory of God. His followers were entrusted to invest that, to share the gospel, to take the risk to bring more people to a saving knowledge of God. This parable is similar to the great commission - Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

The follower who was reprimanded harshly - who was thrown into outer darkness in the related parable in Matthew, is the one who did not invest the treasure he had been given. He hid it, and there was no increase. Luke's version goes even further - when the King returns, those who reject him as king will be struck down. The traditional Christian view is that means those who reject Christ in the second coming - and those who refuse to use the gifts God has given them or refuse to share the gospel message will be condemned to Hell. Since I seriously doubt the existence of a literal, fiery Hell, I see that differently, but that sort of gets on a different subject, so I'll stop here.















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Joined: 1:16 AM - Dec 08, 2003

8:31 PM - May 03, 2012 #29

as "fudging" ... or not really offering any kind of plausible logical response to the question posed.

If all of this is going to happen "in the end" ... it STILL doesn't explain how Jesus can be this harmless, benevolent, peaceful loving character whom people can emulate to become extremely good and beneficial people ... when, in the END ... he turns vicious anyway.

What the parable would indicate to followers is that ... when all is said and done ... you ELIMINATE your opposition (and not nicely either) ... by having them killed in plain view of the victor. Right?

And you couple that parable with what Jesus said in various other places ... you DON'T get the view that he was God (without need to resort to common human conflict resolution practices) ... but instead, very HUMAN like the rest of us.

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

He spoke to his human followers in THEIR lingo of understanding and I can't see how -if he liberally used the word "sword"- they would interpret his words to mean something quite benign instead ... can you?

And if he DID -- LITERALLY-- mean what he said ... could he still be a manifestation of God in your own perception of what God really represents?

-Vince
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Joined: 10:37 PM - Apr 17, 2006

10:23 PM - May 03, 2012 #30

You are merely promulgating...
The Gentile Perversion of Judaism...
-- after all, Jesus was a Jew.
And, Judaism is, in fact...
The Hebrew Perversion...
Of the Polytheistic Sumerian Religion...
-- let us not forget...
-- Abraham was Sumerian.

The References to Plurality...
Made by the "God" of the Old Testament...
Are acknowledgements of...
-- The Sumerian Pantheon.

Which, of course, would be perfectly clear...
If not for some 4000 years of religious obscurantism.

-PRev1-
John said the Word was in the beginning with God, the Word was God, and all things were created through the Word - that would all be in the first chapter of Genesis. Then John says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us - the spiritual being took on human form. And he clearly identifies that human being as Jesus.

The Jews had one way of looking at God; the Sumerians had another way. As did the Norse, the Greeks, the Celts, the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Native Americans, the Aboriginies...

I know this may be a rather untraditional view, but I believe there IS only one God, PRev, and always has only been one God. Since the beginning of time, humans have tried to describe and to imagine God. Some things they got right, and some things they didn't. In our efforts to understand who God is and what God is like, we tend to personify God in a way that makes sense to us - but also make the mistake of creating God in our image. Patriarchal societies depict God as a father; matriarchal societies worshipped a mother deity. Warlike societies imagined a warlike God of violence; agrarian societies worshipped a God or Goddess of the harvest.

But God is so much bigger than all of that (I believe). The Jews made some of the same mistakes as other cultures - when they've described God as cruel, unfair, bloodthirsty, or advocating them to slaughter their enemies and collect the spoils. But at other times, they got it right and described what God is really like - a vast, infinite spirit being who is omnipresent; our Creator; our provider; God is love and justice and compassion; God desires mercy rather than sacrifice. God wants us above all, to love one another, help one another, carry each other's burdens. A God who fills the universe, but can also live in our hearts.

Goo goo g'joob.

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