Tim
Tim

11:07 PM - Apr 23, 2012 #11

with a quote from Jesus..

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

From what Jesus said..
Is Jesus our Father? No.
Is Jesus our God? No.

The Trinity doctrine falsely fabricates Jesus to be God and our Father all rolled up into one. Painting a false picture where the Son of God really doesn't exist.

John3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

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Joined: 10:37 PM - Apr 17, 2006

6:20 PM - Apr 24, 2012 #12

 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.
 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husbands will, but born of God.

 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, This is the one I spoke about when I said, He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Greek transliteration En arch n ho Lógos, kai ho Lógos n pros ton Theón, kai Theós n ho Lógos.

Literal English in beginning' (or "original" or "foundation" or "source" or "principle") was the Word (or "reason" or "saying"), and the Word (or "reason" or "saying") was with (lit. "towards" or "facing") God, and the Word (or "reason" or "saying") was God.[3]

Who is the Word? The Word was God, became flesh, and dwelt among us. That's what the passage says.
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Joined: 10:37 PM - Apr 17, 2006

6:30 PM - Apr 24, 2012 #13

with a quote from Jesus..

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

From what Jesus said..
Is Jesus our Father? No.
Is Jesus our God? No.

The Trinity doctrine falsely fabricates Jesus to be God and our Father all rolled up into one. Painting a false picture where the Son of God really doesn't exist.

John3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 6 Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.

 8 Philip said, Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.

 9 Jesus answered: Dont you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father? 10 Dont you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

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Joined: 10:37 PM - Apr 17, 2006

7:02 PM - Apr 24, 2012 #14

with a quote from Jesus..

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

From what Jesus said..
Is Jesus our Father? No.
Is Jesus our God? No.

The Trinity doctrine falsely fabricates Jesus to be God and our Father all rolled up into one. Painting a false picture where the Son of God really doesn't exist.

John3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Isaiah 44:24  24 This is what the LORD says
   your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
   I am the LORD,
   the Maker of all things,
   who stretches out the heavens,
   who spreads out the earth by myself,


But who was God speaking to at Creation?

Genesis 1:26  26 Then God said, Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, "

John 1:2-3 He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1:16-17 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.




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Tim
Tim

5:25 AM - Apr 25, 2012 #15

all things have been created through him and for him
-----------------------------------------------------

That's correct Sister, THROUGH HIM not by him.

GOD created everything, even Jesus our Christ and Brother.

Jesus was made so much better than the angels.
Hebrews 1:1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

God made Jesus to be both our Lord and Christ.
Acts 2:36
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

I don't desire to argue with you Sister Kate. And I wouldn't if I had no certain answers to your mild confusion. And I mean that very kindly.

John 1 is talking about Jesus being revealed as the Son of God, because in the OT Jesus was seen and heard to mankind as being GOD. Jesus has always been the spokesman to mankind for our FATHER. But that was not revealed to us until 2000 years ago as John elaborates on in John 1.

Proof????
Look what else John knows....
John 5:37
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

1 John 4:12
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

John 1:18
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 1 is a very deep thoughts from John's understanding of how Jesus was revealed to mankind as the Son of GOD, instead of being GOD as previously believed.

Want to know more? Just question me and perhaps I can learn from you too.

Do you know Joseph and Mary's last name? Zebedee. Its in the Bible.
So Jesus step father was Joseph Zebedee, who had multiple wives and children.

Love ya Sis.
Bro Tim

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Joined: 10:37 PM - Apr 17, 2006

7:55 AM - Apr 25, 2012 #16

I know what I believe, and why. We just understand things differently. I have heard the view you are expressing many times in conversations with other people who believe as you do, that Jesus is not the incarnation of God. And that's fine, because, unlike many Trinitarians, I don't think you have to believe Jesus was God in order to be saved. But I do disagree with your view. And my view isn't the traditional Trinitarian view, either...some have told me that my views are heretical =) I just see people splitting hairs and arguing the fine details of things that are impossible for mere humans to fully comprehend.

John 1 speaks for itself - in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. In Greek and in Latin, the word order is actually "and God was the Word".

Greek transliteration: En arch n ho Lógos, kai ho Lógos n pros ton Theón, kai Theós n ho Lógos.

Latin Vulgate: In principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum.

The text does not say: the Word was "a god", or the Word was like God because the Word was God's mouthpiece in the Old Testament, or the Word was created by God and then all other things were created through the Word. I understand if you believe that, and I understand the passages you've provided. But the text says: the Word was God. For me, that makes it very clear.

Especially when compared to these other scriptures as well:

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

John 14:9-10  Jesus answered: Dont you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?

Colossians 1:16-17 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

(I do not see a difference between "through him", "in him", or "by him" all things were created. He is identified as the Creator - and the Creator is God.)

John 10:30-33 "I and the Father are one."

Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?

We are not stoning you for any good work, they replied, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.
******************

And yes, I know the next verses, and no I don't believe that Jesus was in any way telling his accusers - or us today - that we are in any way "gods". There is only one God. But that's a different subject.

On a side note, I have never heard anyone say that Joseph's last name was Zebedee, or that he had other wives, and I don't see any support for that in the text. James and John were sons of Zebedee, and he was a fisherman, not a carpenter as Joseph was.

Matthew 4:21-22
21 And going on from there he saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets, and he called them. 22 Immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.

Mark 1:19-20
19 And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, who were in their boat mending the nets. 20 And immediately he called them, and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants and followed him.

Their mother, the wife of Zebedee, was probably Salome:

Mark 15:40 Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome.

Matthew 27: 55: Many women were there watching from afar, who
had followed Jesus from Galilee, serving him.
56: Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James
and Joses, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.

Where do you get from these passages that Zebedee was Mary and Joseph's last name?

And no worries, Tim, I respect that your beliefs are different than mine. I am not trying to argue or change your mind, just showing you why I believe what I believe. And that I'm not "confused" =)










Last edited by kateothelamp on 2:27 PM - Apr 25, 2012, edited 1 time in total.
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Tim
Tim

7:32 AM - Apr 26, 2012 #17

"the Word was God's mouthpiece in the Old Testament"
-----------------------------------------------------

You got it Sister perfectly right there! high five....

But I'm not sure if you acknowledged/realized what you just wrote.

WORD WAS GOD but now reveled as being the Son of God.

John 5:37
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

1 John 4:12
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

John 1:18
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So who was the "mouthpiece in the Old Testament"? Jesus.

Bro Tim

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Joined: 10:37 PM - Apr 17, 2006

3:27 PM - Apr 26, 2012 #18

...if you cut someone's sentence in half, it can really change the meaning of what they wrote. =)

Nice that you agree with that, but that's not what I wrote. What I wrote:

The text does not say: the Word was "a god", or the Word was like God because the Word was God's mouthpiece in the Old Testament, or the Word was created by God and then all other things were created through the Word

Do I believe that Jesus pre-existed as the Word before he incarnated and lived as a man here on earth? Yes.

But John 1:1 does not say the Word was the mouthpiece for God in the Old Testament. It says "the Word was God."

I like the verses you posted, and agree that Jesus, the Word, the Son, reveals God to us. I don't agree however, that makes him any less God, as he is declared to be in John 1:1.

Jesus said he and the Father are one. He said that if we've seen him, we've seen the Father. He said that the Father was in him, and that he was in the Father.

Do you believe God is omnipresent - everywhere?

Do you believe there is only one God?

And also, I'm curious about your answers to the Zebedee questions I asked you...












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Joined: 4:09 PM - Mar 04, 2007

5:20 PM - Apr 27, 2012 #19

 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.
 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husbands will, but born of God.

 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, This is the one I spoke about when I said, He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Greek transliteration En arch n ho Lógos, kai ho Lógos n pros ton Theón, kai Theós n ho Lógos.

Literal English in beginning' (or "original" or "foundation" or "source" or "principle") was the Word (or "reason" or "saying"), and the Word (or "reason" or "saying") was with (lit. "towards" or "facing") God, and the Word (or "reason" or "saying") was God.[3]

Who is the Word? The Word was God, became flesh, and dwelt among us. That's what the passage says.
Shows a rather Personal bias towards "Eternal Personification".
Why not...
-- "What WAS" the Word...?

The Word was Logic...
-- The Reasoning Mind of the First Principle.

"The First Principle" is a Gnostic title for... "God".

Through the Logic of the Reasoning Mind...
The First Principle created the Physicality...
In which, "WE" perceive our life essence to "BE".

As for the NT rendering of Logos as "He"...
That...
Is simply because, unlike English...
Greek nouns are gender specific.
They are Male, Female or Neutral...
And...
-- Logos is a Masculine Noun.

<blockquote>Strong's Greek 3056 -- Biblos.Com
logos: a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: logos
Phonetic Spelling: (log'-os)
Short Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy
Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.


3056 lógos (from 3004 /lég, "speaking to a conclusion") a word, being the expression of a thought; a saying. 3056 /lógos ("word") is preeminently used of Christ (Jn 1:1), expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit.

[3056 (lógos) is a common term (used 330 times in the NT) with regards to a person sharing a message (discourse, "communication-speech"). 3056 (lógos) is a broad term meaning "reasoning expressed by words."]
And so...
Feeling led by the "Spirit"...
Jesus shared his message...
In the manner of discourse...
-- "communication-speech"...
Jesus expressed what we have been led to believe are...
The "thoughts" of "God", "The First Principle"...
The "Spiritual Father" of the Physicality...
Of which, WE...
-- Are but a tiny part.

And...
While doing so...
Jesus was just a man...
-- Like any other.

-PRev1-
</blockquote>


President Barrack Hussein Obama

-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --


"If you suddenly think Stephen Colbert is truly right wing, that's when I would worry."
-- Neuropsychologist Katherine Rankin.
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Joined: 1:16 AM - Dec 08, 2003

4:15 PM - Apr 28, 2012 #20

... and even though I'm no longer a "Christian" ... I'm so impressed by that concept of "logos" and how far-reaching the implications of that concept goes ... in TODAY'S world ... if only Bible thumpers/believers could grasp it.

People are like herds of sheep ... mindlessly sticking together for some kind of mutual "protection". This herd paradigm is quite powerful but essentially mindless and "dangerous" if the control of the herd falls into evil hands.

What I see being expressed in the New Testament -whether true or embellished or polished in later updated versions- is that it might be possible for individual sheep in the herd to start recognizing how the greater whole is or was constructed through the logos and to develop their learning on how they too ... are a part of that logos and quite capable of being creators in their own right.

If a herd of sheep consisted of individual THINKERS, why then ... there would be NO STOPPING that herd from accomplishing enormous feats .... and creating their own utopia without needing to fight or compete with other herds and predators.

But logos requires voluntary consideration, respect, CO-OPERATION ... and a "love" for one another that arises out of those exercises.

The logos way is non-competitive because all things are shared without egotistical preoccupation for becoming "important" and recognized above others in the group. Everyone is too busy "exploring" with the group to be concerned about personal ambition.

Now, you compare that with the Communist model and it "seems" that Communist ideology is kind of similar: all things in common for the common good of all.

The difference though is that one paradigm is VOLUNTARY because of personal enlightenment ... and the other is imposed by brute force.

Any time you have to impose force to get your philosophy established ... you're right back to the original sin of man ... and usually you become MUCH worse than the very problem you're trying to fix.

Logos is THOUGHT. Unless people learn to explore what is and drop their egotistical concerns ... they will remain as dumb sheep being led to slaughter.

-Vince

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