As I reflect on yesterday's activities

As I reflect on yesterday's activities

Joined: December 8th, 2003, 1:16 am

February 8th, 2010, 3:55 am #1

I posted a couple of videos featuring the Gaithers and Southern gospel quartets but in the background I was actually doing some research into these groups, their culture and history. I imagine that -to Gaither fans- what I posted was ancient history but to me it was new material.

What struck me, as I was "investigating" this culture for a sort of "first time" is/was their dedication TO their lifestyle and culture. Of course, that all centered on believing in Jesus Christ and evangelizing their audiences through their music, entertainment and emotional pull.

If one goes DEEPER than that though .... to the PURPOSE of propagating this belief culture in order to "SAVE" people, it becomes less clear as to what was the actual bottom line necessity FOR that.

The evangelistic message essentially says that everyone was condemned through the sin of Adam and .... God couldn't stand the sins of man, and therefore couldn't have fellowship with man because of that sin but ... Jesus Christ dying for the sins of mankind made a re-connection possible. The catch is .... people need to KNOW this information and then BELIEVE that Jesus Christ's death and resurrection will DO this magic trick for them. If they don't believe it, the whole "exercise" is for naught.

What's baffling about this is that anyone should have any need to know and believe that this Jesus exercise actually took place .......... UNLESS ....... knowing and believing, results in the loss of sin ... which then allows God to come closer and closer to the ones who believe it all.

That would make sense. A belief would CHANGE a person's life, making such a person different and better than they'd been BEFORE they'd ever heard about Jesus and before they ever knew anything about the gospel message. Then God could like them more.

However -apparently- this isn't the case because people who accept and believe this message in the southern style, are NOT expected to change anything about their lifestyle. They still sin the same as non-believers and have the same problems experienced by non-believers. They still live exactly the same as the people in the world around them ... adopt the same life-style and in many cases, even EXAGGERATE that lifestyle by overdoing mascara, jewelry, wigs/hair-do's, mannerisms, dress and actions.

So, people who become "believers" are not any different from non-believers. They believe and they go to meetings and act out a bunch of stuff they believe to be "in the spirit" ... sing and cry and whatever other rituals they adopt ... but outside of these things, they could never be differentiated from non-believers in their behaviors.

The quartet boys sang about the gospel message on stage, but in their private lives they frequently indulged in all of the same vices as their secular entertainment counter-parts.

So changing life-style was not too important. Only belief was important.

Yet, if God hated sin so much that he couldn't stand to have contact with sinful man, how would the sacrificing of his son make any difference to his abhorrence of sin in mankind, if mankind has no need to get rid of any sin? All they have to do is BELIEVE that Jesus died for their sin, it seems!

So ... the sacrifice of Jesus makes no difference in the REAL sin quotient and ...

Belief or no belief makes no difference to the sin quotient either and therefore, why is it necessary to believe anything since believing makes no difference in life-style either? This is a big mystery.

Now, if one were to think of "being saved" in terms of getting one's life together .... of fixing problems, of seeing new ways to do things so as to ENABLE one to have a happier, healthier LIFE here on earth ... it would MAKE some sense. Belief would then be a main ingredient because ONLY by believing, would a Christian avail himself of the techniques to CHANGE his life into something better. I think that in some secondary vague way, this is ALSO what the gospel is expected to achieve -in the southern Christian mind. But is seems quite unclear as to what "being saved" really, truly means. Is it for the sake of escaping hell and going to heaven ... or is it for the purpose of making lives more better? And if a person DOES work on his life to make it better though ... he is often accused of trying to become "righteous through works" ... and so, THAT is not good either.

Well so ... as I watched these videos, I was struck by the amount of CRYING that occurred in the Gaither meetings. It seemed as though there was so much guilt and confessing going on about doubting, and so much crying that it would seem these people were perhaps quite miserable in their everyday real lives? They seemed to admit to being defeated so much of the time.

The music was really quite enticing and they seemed to have a great time doing their music -even clowning around an awful lot ... but that could easily have occurred in a secular setting too. A good secular concert would easily elicit similar emotional response.

JD Sumner seemed like a pretty nice guy but he admitted to being an alcoholic pretty well all through the '70s. He was never sure of his "salvation" and felt a need to "get saved" again and again as he sinned, believing that if he was to die during a sin period or thereafter, without having gotten re-saved ... he would go to hell, in spite of all the good gospel work he's done in his life.

Sumner's nephew, Donnie, left the Stamps quartet in 1973, due to "personal issues" and -by his own testimony- then turned into a druggie derelict ... coming back "to the Lord" in 1976 ... although he says he was into his sin life for 9 years. That would mean he was singing gospel WHILE he was doing all of his wretched stuff.

Whatever the case, it seems he never stopped/stops blubbering about it in his speech or singing, no matter HOW many years have passed since. Again, the appeal is the tear-jerking effect on his audience.

What's THAT all about? Why do these believers need to be crying so much? Do they have a love affair with suffering, caused by sin? How does God feel about it, looking down at the bunch, crying over their defeats? Isn't that exactly what he sent Jesus to the cross FOR .... to defeat/ to SAVE them from?

The one that particularly "got" me was Howard Goodman of the "Happy Goodmans." Now this guy got to be relatively old ... something like 81. He seems to have been an exception; most didn't get to be terribly old. (Many of these Gospel singing people dropped dead of heart attacks from as low as 40, 50 and often in their early 70's. Goodman's wife Vestal, died at age 72, a year after her 81 yo husband passed away ... of a heart attack as well. It would seem that Gospel singing may be hard on the heart.)

Howard Goodman had spent his life in the service of his belief. Both he and his wife said they never regretted a minute of it. HOWEVER ... in one clip, near the end of Howard's life, he gave a little testimony in which he confided something that he'd never even told his wife before! He said that the DEVIL was coming at him at night ... telling him there IS NO HEAVEN!!

Well, that says something to me. He was unsure of his own belief. Even if there is a devil, why would Mr. Devil waste his time trying to persuade this saint and warrior of God that there's no heaven? To cause him to disbelieve and thereby causing him to go to hell? It's like .... all so seemingly senseless. God would PUNISH his own faithful servants by throwing them into an endless eternity of torture ... just for having some last minute doubts? It's reminiscent of Mother Teresa's end time doubts. If the devil had no chance of wrecking Goodman's salvation, why would he waste his time trying to harass him near the end of his life? There would surely be far more fruitful ways for the devil to spend his time.

So, when all is said and done and analyzed, it appears that there is or was little real worthwhile value to the whole gospel singing tradition in terms of true salvation.

They produced some very good music, I admit. They had their own culture and life-style which -I suppose- was gratifying for them. Outside of THAT, it seems to me that they took on a mission that brought them a lot of grief and anxiety and really/actually produced nothing of edifying value for anyone else, except to get others into the same kind of head space.

-Vince

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Joined: November 4th, 2006, 5:18 pm

February 8th, 2010, 4:16 am #2

Well Vince I must disagree with some of your post.

I have never heard the Gaithers cry and I have several of their videos. Despite the 'religion', I have always found thenm to be very positive and uplifting.

My wife and I went to see them in person in Vancouver a few years ago. After their show was finished, they continued to jam on stage for three more hours. It was very spiritual and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Yes they are just people like everyone else, and that is a big part of the attraction for me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wck4nqIl ... re=related




"Making friends - the highest calling"

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Joined: August 29th, 2006, 3:48 am

February 8th, 2010, 4:36 am #3

Same applies to J D and his nephew...I believe it says someplace that all have sinned....so what if they all have admitted they sinned there is an advocate if I read correctly. Anyone can walk away and hopefullt they can and will return.
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Joined: July 13th, 2009, 1:50 pm

February 8th, 2010, 1:11 pm #4

I posted a couple of videos featuring the Gaithers and Southern gospel quartets but in the background I was actually doing some research into these groups, their culture and history. I imagine that -to Gaither fans- what I posted was ancient history but to me it was new material.

What struck me, as I was "investigating" this culture for a sort of "first time" is/was their dedication TO their lifestyle and culture. Of course, that all centered on believing in Jesus Christ and evangelizing their audiences through their music, entertainment and emotional pull.

If one goes DEEPER than that though .... to the PURPOSE of propagating this belief culture in order to "SAVE" people, it becomes less clear as to what was the actual bottom line necessity FOR that.

The evangelistic message essentially says that everyone was condemned through the sin of Adam and .... God couldn't stand the sins of man, and therefore couldn't have fellowship with man because of that sin but ... Jesus Christ dying for the sins of mankind made a re-connection possible. The catch is .... people need to KNOW this information and then BELIEVE that Jesus Christ's death and resurrection will DO this magic trick for them. If they don't believe it, the whole "exercise" is for naught.

What's baffling about this is that anyone should have any need to know and believe that this Jesus exercise actually took place .......... UNLESS ....... knowing and believing, results in the loss of sin ... which then allows God to come closer and closer to the ones who believe it all.

That would make sense. A belief would CHANGE a person's life, making such a person different and better than they'd been BEFORE they'd ever heard about Jesus and before they ever knew anything about the gospel message. Then God could like them more.

However -apparently- this isn't the case because people who accept and believe this message in the southern style, are NOT expected to change anything about their lifestyle. They still sin the same as non-believers and have the same problems experienced by non-believers. They still live exactly the same as the people in the world around them ... adopt the same life-style and in many cases, even EXAGGERATE that lifestyle by overdoing mascara, jewelry, wigs/hair-do's, mannerisms, dress and actions.

So, people who become "believers" are not any different from non-believers. They believe and they go to meetings and act out a bunch of stuff they believe to be "in the spirit" ... sing and cry and whatever other rituals they adopt ... but outside of these things, they could never be differentiated from non-believers in their behaviors.

The quartet boys sang about the gospel message on stage, but in their private lives they frequently indulged in all of the same vices as their secular entertainment counter-parts.

So changing life-style was not too important. Only belief was important.

Yet, if God hated sin so much that he couldn't stand to have contact with sinful man, how would the sacrificing of his son make any difference to his abhorrence of sin in mankind, if mankind has no need to get rid of any sin? All they have to do is BELIEVE that Jesus died for their sin, it seems!

So ... the sacrifice of Jesus makes no difference in the REAL sin quotient and ...

Belief or no belief makes no difference to the sin quotient either and therefore, why is it necessary to believe anything since believing makes no difference in life-style either? This is a big mystery.

Now, if one were to think of "being saved" in terms of getting one's life together .... of fixing problems, of seeing new ways to do things so as to ENABLE one to have a happier, healthier LIFE here on earth ... it would MAKE some sense. Belief would then be a main ingredient because ONLY by believing, would a Christian avail himself of the techniques to CHANGE his life into something better. I think that in some secondary vague way, this is ALSO what the gospel is expected to achieve -in the southern Christian mind. But is seems quite unclear as to what "being saved" really, truly means. Is it for the sake of escaping hell and going to heaven ... or is it for the purpose of making lives more better? And if a person DOES work on his life to make it better though ... he is often accused of trying to become "righteous through works" ... and so, THAT is not good either.

Well so ... as I watched these videos, I was struck by the amount of CRYING that occurred in the Gaither meetings. It seemed as though there was so much guilt and confessing going on about doubting, and so much crying that it would seem these people were perhaps quite miserable in their everyday real lives? They seemed to admit to being defeated so much of the time.

The music was really quite enticing and they seemed to have a great time doing their music -even clowning around an awful lot ... but that could easily have occurred in a secular setting too. A good secular concert would easily elicit similar emotional response.

JD Sumner seemed like a pretty nice guy but he admitted to being an alcoholic pretty well all through the '70s. He was never sure of his "salvation" and felt a need to "get saved" again and again as he sinned, believing that if he was to die during a sin period or thereafter, without having gotten re-saved ... he would go to hell, in spite of all the good gospel work he's done in his life.

Sumner's nephew, Donnie, left the Stamps quartet in 1973, due to "personal issues" and -by his own testimony- then turned into a druggie derelict ... coming back "to the Lord" in 1976 ... although he says he was into his sin life for 9 years. That would mean he was singing gospel WHILE he was doing all of his wretched stuff.

Whatever the case, it seems he never stopped/stops blubbering about it in his speech or singing, no matter HOW many years have passed since. Again, the appeal is the tear-jerking effect on his audience.

What's THAT all about? Why do these believers need to be crying so much? Do they have a love affair with suffering, caused by sin? How does God feel about it, looking down at the bunch, crying over their defeats? Isn't that exactly what he sent Jesus to the cross FOR .... to defeat/ to SAVE them from?

The one that particularly "got" me was Howard Goodman of the "Happy Goodmans." Now this guy got to be relatively old ... something like 81. He seems to have been an exception; most didn't get to be terribly old. (Many of these Gospel singing people dropped dead of heart attacks from as low as 40, 50 and often in their early 70's. Goodman's wife Vestal, died at age 72, a year after her 81 yo husband passed away ... of a heart attack as well. It would seem that Gospel singing may be hard on the heart.)

Howard Goodman had spent his life in the service of his belief. Both he and his wife said they never regretted a minute of it. HOWEVER ... in one clip, near the end of Howard's life, he gave a little testimony in which he confided something that he'd never even told his wife before! He said that the DEVIL was coming at him at night ... telling him there IS NO HEAVEN!!

Well, that says something to me. He was unsure of his own belief. Even if there is a devil, why would Mr. Devil waste his time trying to persuade this saint and warrior of God that there's no heaven? To cause him to disbelieve and thereby causing him to go to hell? It's like .... all so seemingly senseless. God would PUNISH his own faithful servants by throwing them into an endless eternity of torture ... just for having some last minute doubts? It's reminiscent of Mother Teresa's end time doubts. If the devil had no chance of wrecking Goodman's salvation, why would he waste his time trying to harass him near the end of his life? There would surely be far more fruitful ways for the devil to spend his time.

So, when all is said and done and analyzed, it appears that there is or was little real worthwhile value to the whole gospel singing tradition in terms of true salvation.

They produced some very good music, I admit. They had their own culture and life-style which -I suppose- was gratifying for them. Outside of THAT, it seems to me that they took on a mission that brought them a lot of grief and anxiety and really/actually produced nothing of edifying value for anyone else, except to get others into the same kind of head space.

-Vince
Salvation is not automatic for everybody (Universalism) and once passed from THIS LIFE, there is NO SECOND CHANCE.

Heb 9:27
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die ONCE and after this {comes} judgment, (NAS)

There is NO MAGIC TRICK....It is the MIRACLE of the GRACE of God to whom God FOREKNEW.

Rom 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;
30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (NAS)

I will have have disagreement among some Christian BROTHERS that believe you can lose your salvation, but I think God is POWERFUL ENOUGH to KEEP those to whom He as saved.


2 Tim 1:12
12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I KNOW whom I have believed and am persuaded THAT HE IS ABLE to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. (NKJ)

Doubts coming to a believer's life is not an uncommon thing (it happens) but that has more to do with a person's makeup rather than the work of God. Satan KNOWS this and works at a person's weak areas of faith rather than his strengths. For the TRUE CHRISTIAN however, the goal is to find rest believing in the PEACE OF GOD.





Unless we LOVE the truth, we cannot know it ~~ Pascal

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Joined: January 13th, 2010, 2:50 pm

February 8th, 2010, 1:12 pm #5

I posted a couple of videos featuring the Gaithers and Southern gospel quartets but in the background I was actually doing some research into these groups, their culture and history. I imagine that -to Gaither fans- what I posted was ancient history but to me it was new material.

What struck me, as I was "investigating" this culture for a sort of "first time" is/was their dedication TO their lifestyle and culture. Of course, that all centered on believing in Jesus Christ and evangelizing their audiences through their music, entertainment and emotional pull.

If one goes DEEPER than that though .... to the PURPOSE of propagating this belief culture in order to "SAVE" people, it becomes less clear as to what was the actual bottom line necessity FOR that.

The evangelistic message essentially says that everyone was condemned through the sin of Adam and .... God couldn't stand the sins of man, and therefore couldn't have fellowship with man because of that sin but ... Jesus Christ dying for the sins of mankind made a re-connection possible. The catch is .... people need to KNOW this information and then BELIEVE that Jesus Christ's death and resurrection will DO this magic trick for them. If they don't believe it, the whole "exercise" is for naught.

What's baffling about this is that anyone should have any need to know and believe that this Jesus exercise actually took place .......... UNLESS ....... knowing and believing, results in the loss of sin ... which then allows God to come closer and closer to the ones who believe it all.

That would make sense. A belief would CHANGE a person's life, making such a person different and better than they'd been BEFORE they'd ever heard about Jesus and before they ever knew anything about the gospel message. Then God could like them more.

However -apparently- this isn't the case because people who accept and believe this message in the southern style, are NOT expected to change anything about their lifestyle. They still sin the same as non-believers and have the same problems experienced by non-believers. They still live exactly the same as the people in the world around them ... adopt the same life-style and in many cases, even EXAGGERATE that lifestyle by overdoing mascara, jewelry, wigs/hair-do's, mannerisms, dress and actions.

So, people who become "believers" are not any different from non-believers. They believe and they go to meetings and act out a bunch of stuff they believe to be "in the spirit" ... sing and cry and whatever other rituals they adopt ... but outside of these things, they could never be differentiated from non-believers in their behaviors.

The quartet boys sang about the gospel message on stage, but in their private lives they frequently indulged in all of the same vices as their secular entertainment counter-parts.

So changing life-style was not too important. Only belief was important.

Yet, if God hated sin so much that he couldn't stand to have contact with sinful man, how would the sacrificing of his son make any difference to his abhorrence of sin in mankind, if mankind has no need to get rid of any sin? All they have to do is BELIEVE that Jesus died for their sin, it seems!

So ... the sacrifice of Jesus makes no difference in the REAL sin quotient and ...

Belief or no belief makes no difference to the sin quotient either and therefore, why is it necessary to believe anything since believing makes no difference in life-style either? This is a big mystery.

Now, if one were to think of "being saved" in terms of getting one's life together .... of fixing problems, of seeing new ways to do things so as to ENABLE one to have a happier, healthier LIFE here on earth ... it would MAKE some sense. Belief would then be a main ingredient because ONLY by believing, would a Christian avail himself of the techniques to CHANGE his life into something better. I think that in some secondary vague way, this is ALSO what the gospel is expected to achieve -in the southern Christian mind. But is seems quite unclear as to what "being saved" really, truly means. Is it for the sake of escaping hell and going to heaven ... or is it for the purpose of making lives more better? And if a person DOES work on his life to make it better though ... he is often accused of trying to become "righteous through works" ... and so, THAT is not good either.

Well so ... as I watched these videos, I was struck by the amount of CRYING that occurred in the Gaither meetings. It seemed as though there was so much guilt and confessing going on about doubting, and so much crying that it would seem these people were perhaps quite miserable in their everyday real lives? They seemed to admit to being defeated so much of the time.

The music was really quite enticing and they seemed to have a great time doing their music -even clowning around an awful lot ... but that could easily have occurred in a secular setting too. A good secular concert would easily elicit similar emotional response.

JD Sumner seemed like a pretty nice guy but he admitted to being an alcoholic pretty well all through the '70s. He was never sure of his "salvation" and felt a need to "get saved" again and again as he sinned, believing that if he was to die during a sin period or thereafter, without having gotten re-saved ... he would go to hell, in spite of all the good gospel work he's done in his life.

Sumner's nephew, Donnie, left the Stamps quartet in 1973, due to "personal issues" and -by his own testimony- then turned into a druggie derelict ... coming back "to the Lord" in 1976 ... although he says he was into his sin life for 9 years. That would mean he was singing gospel WHILE he was doing all of his wretched stuff.

Whatever the case, it seems he never stopped/stops blubbering about it in his speech or singing, no matter HOW many years have passed since. Again, the appeal is the tear-jerking effect on his audience.

What's THAT all about? Why do these believers need to be crying so much? Do they have a love affair with suffering, caused by sin? How does God feel about it, looking down at the bunch, crying over their defeats? Isn't that exactly what he sent Jesus to the cross FOR .... to defeat/ to SAVE them from?

The one that particularly "got" me was Howard Goodman of the "Happy Goodmans." Now this guy got to be relatively old ... something like 81. He seems to have been an exception; most didn't get to be terribly old. (Many of these Gospel singing people dropped dead of heart attacks from as low as 40, 50 and often in their early 70's. Goodman's wife Vestal, died at age 72, a year after her 81 yo husband passed away ... of a heart attack as well. It would seem that Gospel singing may be hard on the heart.)

Howard Goodman had spent his life in the service of his belief. Both he and his wife said they never regretted a minute of it. HOWEVER ... in one clip, near the end of Howard's life, he gave a little testimony in which he confided something that he'd never even told his wife before! He said that the DEVIL was coming at him at night ... telling him there IS NO HEAVEN!!

Well, that says something to me. He was unsure of his own belief. Even if there is a devil, why would Mr. Devil waste his time trying to persuade this saint and warrior of God that there's no heaven? To cause him to disbelieve and thereby causing him to go to hell? It's like .... all so seemingly senseless. God would PUNISH his own faithful servants by throwing them into an endless eternity of torture ... just for having some last minute doubts? It's reminiscent of Mother Teresa's end time doubts. If the devil had no chance of wrecking Goodman's salvation, why would he waste his time trying to harass him near the end of his life? There would surely be far more fruitful ways for the devil to spend his time.

So, when all is said and done and analyzed, it appears that there is or was little real worthwhile value to the whole gospel singing tradition in terms of true salvation.

They produced some very good music, I admit. They had their own culture and life-style which -I suppose- was gratifying for them. Outside of THAT, it seems to me that they took on a mission that brought them a lot of grief and anxiety and really/actually produced nothing of edifying value for anyone else, except to get others into the same kind of head space.

-Vince
I lived it throughout my childhood. I am apparently still living it today with many in my family and in-laws. A bunch of folks "spewing the proper words" when needed, and in front of the right "audience". Yet living a completely different life with questionable behaviors when alone, or in different groups. The worst was watching the "leaders & elders" actually preying on others to get them to "submit". Using fear, shame, and doubt to manipulate the "lay members". It doesn't take any esoteric study or coded translations to get the biblical message from the bible - these behaviors are questionable at best. Not taking it to the point of "judgment", but simply that these behaviors appear to completely ignore the lessons of honesty & compassion taught by Jesus himself. How any Christian, or one claiming to follow Jesus, can justify such things; and not even be honest with themselves, let alone with others; seems nothing less than mind-boggling.

It was educational and eye-opening for certain. And it apparently left me "hypera-ware" or "hyper-sensitive" to insincerity and dishonesty, to a fault in some cases it would seem.
Last edited by ever-a-newbie on February 8th, 2010, 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 13th, 2009, 1:50 pm

February 8th, 2010, 1:22 pm #6

You've missed about 99% of the Bible message. You're going by YOUR definition of of honesty and compassion and framing into a lovey dovey picture. If you had read the whole Bible from the perspective of LIGHT you would see a compassion and honesty that comes in another frame.

For example; to say there is a hell is actually being honest and the person saying it may not be saying in judgment but rather in compassion.

Unless we LOVE the truth, we cannot know it ~~ Pascal

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Joined: March 4th, 2007, 4:09 pm

February 8th, 2010, 2:35 pm #7

Salvation is not automatic for everybody (Universalism) and once passed from THIS LIFE, there is NO SECOND CHANCE.

Heb 9:27
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die ONCE and after this {comes} judgment, (NAS)

There is NO MAGIC TRICK....It is the MIRACLE of the GRACE of God to whom God FOREKNEW.

Rom 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;
30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (NAS)

I will have have disagreement among some Christian BROTHERS that believe you can lose your salvation, but I think God is POWERFUL ENOUGH to KEEP those to whom He as saved.


2 Tim 1:12
12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I KNOW whom I have believed and am persuaded THAT HE IS ABLE to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. (NKJ)

Doubts coming to a believer's life is not an uncommon thing (it happens) but that has more to do with a person's makeup rather than the work of God. Satan KNOWS this and works at a person's weak areas of faith rather than his strengths. For the TRUE CHRISTIAN however, the goal is to find rest believing in the PEACE OF GOD.





Unless we LOVE the truth, we cannot know it ~~ Pascal
Frequently quoted from...
And...
Just as frequently...
-- Misunderstood.

<blockquote>Heb 9:27
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die ONCE and after this {comes} judgment, (NAS)
Aaahhh Yes...
-- The "judgment".

But...
Since Jesus died...
-- Once...
-- For ALL...
Since...
-- ALL things ARE Lawful...
Since...
-- There is NO other sacrifice for "sin"...
Since...
-- The "debt" has been Paid in Full...
What then...
Shall that "judgment" be...?

At the Great White Throne of "Judgment"...
ALL Shall be Declared...
-- "Righteous"...
Not by "faith"...
Not by "belief"...
Not by "confession"...
Not by "repentence"...
Not by ANY DEEDS of Man...
But ONLY...
-- Through the Grace of God.
1 Corinthians 15:22 -
For as in Adam ALL die,
So also in Christ ALL will be made alive.
Adam = All
Jesus = All
All = 100%
And...
100% = Universalism.

Salvation IS automatic for everybody.

-PRev1-
</blockquote>

President Barrack Hussein Obama

-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --
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Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

February 8th, 2010, 2:38 pm #8

In Christ ALL are made alive.

The "judgment" consists of one judgment. And we ALL know how that turns out.

It is Finished. Once and for ALL.

That is indeed Good News. That is the Gospel!

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Joined: March 4th, 2007, 4:09 pm

February 8th, 2010, 2:43 pm #9

Are a fellow Reprobate.
-- The more the merrier...!

-PRev1-

President Barrack Hussein Obama

-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --
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Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

February 8th, 2010, 2:48 pm #10

Seems to be a synonym for true believer.

One who does not follow the doctrines of men.


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