A couple of quotes about "God"

A couple of quotes about "God"

Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

March 5th, 2011, 4:38 pm #1

Robert G. Ingersoll said:
Every [Christian] sect is a certificate that God has not plainly revealed His will to man. To each reader the Bible conveys a different meaning. About the meaning of this book, called a revelation, there have been ages of war and centuries of sword and flame. If written by an infinite God, He must have known that these results must follow; and thus knowing, He must be responsible for all.
<blockquote>


Friedrich Nietzsche said:
A god who is all-knowing and all-powerful and who does not even make sure his creatures understand his intentioncould that be a god of goodness? Who allows countless doubts and dubieties to persist, for thousands of years, as though the salvation of mankind were unaffected by them, and who on the other hand holds out the prospect of frightful consequences if any mistake is made as to the nature of truth? . . . Did he perhaps lack intelligence to do so? Or the eloquence? Must he not then . . . be able to help and counsel [his creatures], except in the manner of a deaf man making all kinds of ambiguous signs when the most fearful danger is about to befall on his child or dog?
</blockquote>


These quotes are taken from the article: How To Debunk Christianity (below)
Last edited by Oscar50 on March 5th, 2011, 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

March 5th, 2011, 4:41 pm #2

How to Debunk Christianity
By John W. Loftus at 2/08/2011

As you can see from this chart of denominations the Church of Christ is represented as the true church. I have not tried to verify the facts, but it's roughly accurate I suppose in representing when they started and such. Notice that every denomination is part of "Babylon the Great Whore" depicted in the book of Revelation except those in the "Restoration Movement" "non-denominational" conservative middle branch of the Christian Church/Churches of Christ, of which I was once a part. In the lower right hand corner there is a strict warning that people in these other denominations will probably be doomed. A lot of other Christians in various denominations think the same way about the Church of Christ and condemn them as heretical.

Is that not the hoot! No doubt everyone is deceived if you talk to conservatives. I even saw a recent video where during a church service a preacher had his parishioners come forward and they were asked to rip apart any Bible they had except the King James Version. Not even the New King James Version was acceptable.

One Christian group thinks the others are deceived while other groups think likewise about them.

I have several Systematic Theology textbooks, including one by H. Wayne House, called Charts of Christian Theology & Doctrine. In it he charts the denominations of course, but he also has charts of five models of revelation, six views of inspiration, five views of the Trinity [I have a used book and on the "Orthodox Trinitarian" view the previous owner, presumably a student, penciled in "Us!!"], three views of "tongues," four views of the nature of man, three views on original sin, five views of salvation, nine views of the atonement, five views of sanctification, four views on water baptism, four views of the Lord's Supper, four views of the rapture, four views of the millennium, and so on.


Rich Knopp at Lincoln Christian University, my Alma mater, is using my book, WIBA, in his college and master's level classes on apologetics. As students read through it they are asked to notice any contradictions they see within the text. When I first heard about this I was puzzled, but not any more. For in one part I argue as if God has foreknowledge of human actions while in another part of it I argue that God doesn't have this kind of foreknowledge. Contradiction? No, not here. It's just that I'm arguing that if God has foreknowledge he should be able to foreknow and answer prayers that haven't yet been prayed, but in fact I don't believe God can have this kind of foreknowledge along with other Christians. Does this debunk Christianity? Well, not those who affirm Open Theism since I at one time embraced this view. But I do argue against them on other issues, especially when it comes to the logical choices that open theists have not sufficiently dealt with on page 81, where I use Paul Helm's argument against it.

And here is the problem. When it comes to Christianity I agree with the Protestant criticisms of the Catholics as well as the Catholic criticisms of the Protestants. And I also agree with the fundamentalist criticisms of the liberals as well as the liberal criticisms of the fundamentalists. And I agree with the Hindu, Muslim and Jewish criticisms of Christianity, as well as the Christian criticisms against their religions. When they criticize each other I think they're all right! What's left is the demise of religion and Christianity as a whole.

So in order to make my case I represent contrary theological positions against other theologies. If someone wants to argue Pat Robertson was wrong when he said the Haitians deserved what they got then I must argue that he stands squarely in the Christian tradition. He's not stupid. He's more consistent than those other Christians who are denouncing him. But by doing so I'm called stupid by these other Christians who denounce him as stupid. I'm not being stupid. These other Christians fail to realize that Robertson's views were standard fare among Christians at one time, and are still held today by a lot of people who donate money to Robertson's ministry. They're all stupid, right? They are all deceived, right? That's what more enlightened Christians say and it reminds me of that Church of Christ chart above.

So at this point about all I can do is argue that if God exists he is at least partially to blame for people not understanding his will, as I did for a long chapter in The Christian Delusion. This is a serious problem for the Christian faith given the horrible deeds the church did down through the centuries, and the fact that one denomination condemns to hell a different one.

Robert G. Ingersoll said:
Every [Christian] sect is a certificate that God has not plainly revealed His will to man. To each reader the Bible conveys a different meaning. About the meaning of this book, called a revelation, there have been ages of war and centuries of sword and flame. If written by an infinite God, He must have known that these results must follow; and thus knowing, He must be responsible for all.
Friedrich Nietzsche said:
A god who is all-knowing and all-powerful and who does not even make sure his creatures understand his intentioncould that be a god of goodness? Who allows countless doubts and dubieties to persist, for thousands of years, as though the salvation of mankind were unaffected by them, and who on the other hand holds out the prospect of frightful consequences if any mistake is made as to the nature of truth? . . . Did he perhaps lack intelligence to do so? Or the eloquence? Must he not then . . . be able to help and counsel [his creatures], except in the manner of a deaf man making all kinds of ambiguous signs when the most fearful danger is about to befall on his child or dog?
Should't this be good enough?
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Yvonne/Zafana
Yvonne/Zafana

March 5th, 2011, 5:15 pm #3

Robert G. Ingersoll said:
Every [Christian] sect is a certificate that God has not plainly revealed His will to man. To each reader the Bible conveys a different meaning. About the meaning of this book, called a revelation, there have been ages of war and centuries of sword and flame. If written by an infinite God, He must have known that these results must follow; and thus knowing, He must be responsible for all.
<blockquote>


Friedrich Nietzsche said:
A god who is all-knowing and all-powerful and who does not even make sure his creatures understand his intentioncould that be a god of goodness? Who allows countless doubts and dubieties to persist, for thousands of years, as though the salvation of mankind were unaffected by them, and who on the other hand holds out the prospect of frightful consequences if any mistake is made as to the nature of truth? . . . Did he perhaps lack intelligence to do so? Or the eloquence? Must he not then . . . be able to help and counsel [his creatures], except in the manner of a deaf man making all kinds of ambiguous signs when the most fearful danger is about to befall on his child or dog?
</blockquote>


These quotes are taken from the article: How To Debunk Christianity (below)
till the last days of the ego (six thousand years), man has been unable to RECEIVE the truth and it doesn't matter that it comes in the FORM of Christianity or religions of any kind:

its not the religion, but the EGO that interprets them; this is why they don't help

or don't change anyone

the ego (carnal mind) is based on the world and the senses interplay


the ego doesn't care about the REALITY of nature or others or God other than whats IN IT FOR ME?


this is evident and its nobodys fault


the ego had to grow to this point because of the GREAT AMOUNT OF DESIRE it takes to transform into another KIND of being


ego is DESIRE and this individualistic desire is so great now that everyone is miserable because they realize that they can't GET WHAT THEY WANT....no matter where they look "OUT THERE"


now its time for the SOUL that is in the same person, hence God made out of ONE LUMP (one person) TWO VESSELS

one of vanity (the ego)

and one of HONOR (the soul)



this new vessel or FORM that MAN will become understands NATURE and HOW IT WORKS and will BE HAPPY to work with it.......


this is horrific to the ego but thats too bad


there is nothing left for the ego to discover or to aspire to that hasn't been done and tried before


the only thing that is not YET achieved is the REAL PLAN OF GOD from the beginning; LOVE GOD, (our creator) and love one another as ones self.
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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

March 5th, 2011, 5:20 pm #4

How to Debunk Christianity
By John W. Loftus at 2/08/2011

As you can see from this chart of denominations the Church of Christ is represented as the true church. I have not tried to verify the facts, but it's roughly accurate I suppose in representing when they started and such. Notice that every denomination is part of "Babylon the Great Whore" depicted in the book of Revelation except those in the "Restoration Movement" "non-denominational" conservative middle branch of the Christian Church/Churches of Christ, of which I was once a part. In the lower right hand corner there is a strict warning that people in these other denominations will probably be doomed. A lot of other Christians in various denominations think the same way about the Church of Christ and condemn them as heretical.

Is that not the hoot! No doubt everyone is deceived if you talk to conservatives. I even saw a recent video where during a church service a preacher had his parishioners come forward and they were asked to rip apart any Bible they had except the King James Version. Not even the New King James Version was acceptable.

One Christian group thinks the others are deceived while other groups think likewise about them.

I have several Systematic Theology textbooks, including one by H. Wayne House, called Charts of Christian Theology & Doctrine. In it he charts the denominations of course, but he also has charts of five models of revelation, six views of inspiration, five views of the Trinity [I have a used book and on the "Orthodox Trinitarian" view the previous owner, presumably a student, penciled in "Us!!"], three views of "tongues," four views of the nature of man, three views on original sin, five views of salvation, nine views of the atonement, five views of sanctification, four views on water baptism, four views of the Lord's Supper, four views of the rapture, four views of the millennium, and so on.


Rich Knopp at Lincoln Christian University, my Alma mater, is using my book, WIBA, in his college and master's level classes on apologetics. As students read through it they are asked to notice any contradictions they see within the text. When I first heard about this I was puzzled, but not any more. For in one part I argue as if God has foreknowledge of human actions while in another part of it I argue that God doesn't have this kind of foreknowledge. Contradiction? No, not here. It's just that I'm arguing that if God has foreknowledge he should be able to foreknow and answer prayers that haven't yet been prayed, but in fact I don't believe God can have this kind of foreknowledge along with other Christians. Does this debunk Christianity? Well, not those who affirm Open Theism since I at one time embraced this view. But I do argue against them on other issues, especially when it comes to the logical choices that open theists have not sufficiently dealt with on page 81, where I use Paul Helm's argument against it.

And here is the problem. When it comes to Christianity I agree with the Protestant criticisms of the Catholics as well as the Catholic criticisms of the Protestants. And I also agree with the fundamentalist criticisms of the liberals as well as the liberal criticisms of the fundamentalists. And I agree with the Hindu, Muslim and Jewish criticisms of Christianity, as well as the Christian criticisms against their religions. When they criticize each other I think they're all right! What's left is the demise of religion and Christianity as a whole.

So in order to make my case I represent contrary theological positions against other theologies. If someone wants to argue Pat Robertson was wrong when he said the Haitians deserved what they got then I must argue that he stands squarely in the Christian tradition. He's not stupid. He's more consistent than those other Christians who are denouncing him. But by doing so I'm called stupid by these other Christians who denounce him as stupid. I'm not being stupid. These other Christians fail to realize that Robertson's views were standard fare among Christians at one time, and are still held today by a lot of people who donate money to Robertson's ministry. They're all stupid, right? They are all deceived, right? That's what more enlightened Christians say and it reminds me of that Church of Christ chart above.

So at this point about all I can do is argue that if God exists he is at least partially to blame for people not understanding his will, as I did for a long chapter in The Christian Delusion. This is a serious problem for the Christian faith given the horrible deeds the church did down through the centuries, and the fact that one denomination condemns to hell a different one.

Robert G. Ingersoll said:
Every [Christian] sect is a certificate that God has not plainly revealed His will to man. To each reader the Bible conveys a different meaning. About the meaning of this book, called a revelation, there have been ages of war and centuries of sword and flame. If written by an infinite God, He must have known that these results must follow; and thus knowing, He must be responsible for all.
Friedrich Nietzsche said:
A god who is all-knowing and all-powerful and who does not even make sure his creatures understand his intentioncould that be a god of goodness? Who allows countless doubts and dubieties to persist, for thousands of years, as though the salvation of mankind were unaffected by them, and who on the other hand holds out the prospect of frightful consequences if any mistake is made as to the nature of truth? . . . Did he perhaps lack intelligence to do so? Or the eloquence? Must he not then . . . be able to help and counsel [his creatures], except in the manner of a deaf man making all kinds of ambiguous signs when the most fearful danger is about to befall on his child or dog?
Should't this be good enough?
the debunkers don't realize that they are speaking against MANKIND as a whole and the reason they do this is because a) they think they are not LIKE certain people (i.e christians) which is self delusion

and b) they don't UNDERSTAND Christianity any better than the masses who claim to be Christians so they hate that religion hasn't solved the problems for THEM.....the debunkers:


its not that they really have a better solution because if they did, they would be about doing good instead of dissing what doesn't work; since they don't have a better plan, they just CLAIM that mankind is all screwed up because of Christianity or religion, yea, thats the ticket:

in the end its not only the pot calling the kettle black, but its the POT calling EVERYONE else a POT like they are.....

wow, thats really helpful
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

March 5th, 2011, 5:58 pm #5

I'm not sure we need solutions. Really, what's the problem?

I understand the "debunkers". Really, what's there to debunk?

A much better job of "debunking" is in fact done by "believers". One in particular comes to mind, at another place, one who is in a very dark place.

I do see the "debunkers" as being a lot more constructive than most believers. But this is just an exchange of opinions. I'm not too concerned about the debate anymore.

Have a great weekend Z.

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Iceman
Iceman

March 5th, 2011, 6:26 pm #6

till the last days of the ego (six thousand years), man has been unable to RECEIVE the truth and it doesn't matter that it comes in the FORM of Christianity or religions of any kind:

its not the religion, but the EGO that interprets them; this is why they don't help

or don't change anyone

the ego (carnal mind) is based on the world and the senses interplay


the ego doesn't care about the REALITY of nature or others or God other than whats IN IT FOR ME?


this is evident and its nobodys fault


the ego had to grow to this point because of the GREAT AMOUNT OF DESIRE it takes to transform into another KIND of being


ego is DESIRE and this individualistic desire is so great now that everyone is miserable because they realize that they can't GET WHAT THEY WANT....no matter where they look "OUT THERE"


now its time for the SOUL that is in the same person, hence God made out of ONE LUMP (one person) TWO VESSELS

one of vanity (the ego)

and one of HONOR (the soul)



this new vessel or FORM that MAN will become understands NATURE and HOW IT WORKS and will BE HAPPY to work with it.......


this is horrific to the ego but thats too bad


there is nothing left for the ego to discover or to aspire to that hasn't been done and tried before


the only thing that is not YET achieved is the REAL PLAN OF GOD from the beginning; LOVE GOD, (our creator) and love one another as ones self.
The ego is our own construct thus blameing it is a circular argument.

Knowledge has ntohing to do with enlightenment. Virtually NOYHING.
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Seoc Colla
Seoc Colla

March 5th, 2011, 7:59 pm #7

I'm not sure we need solutions. Really, what's the problem?

I understand the "debunkers". Really, what's there to debunk?

A much better job of "debunking" is in fact done by "believers". One in particular comes to mind, at another place, one who is in a very dark place.

I do see the "debunkers" as being a lot more constructive than most believers. But this is just an exchange of opinions. I'm not too concerned about the debate anymore.

Have a great weekend Z.
""One Christian group thinks the others are deceived while other groups think likewise about them""

Wouldn't 'deluded' rather than 'deceived' be a more appropriate choice of word?

This interminal circus has been rattling away for some 1500 years and has consistently failed to produce their god.

May I offer some assistance?

Our planet and all who sail in her operates under immutable Natural Law, which ensures that all Life receives exactly as was sown - not one iota less or more.

It follows, does it not, that appealing to an imagined deity is going to result in favours being shown to those who fondly, but mistakenly believe that they have somehow got a key to the backdoor of their notion of heaven.

Big mistake.

It can also be deduced that theologians are utterly powerless in persuading any deity to play ball with them - although they aren't too keen to have the sheep realise this.

It is your life in your hands.

Try to understand what this means and begin now to 'do as you would be done by' - treat all Life as sacred, especially those whom you would consider less fortunate than you yourselves are.
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Tim
Tim

March 6th, 2011, 6:12 am #8

The ego is our own construct thus blameing it is a circular argument.

Knowledge has ntohing to do with enlightenment. Virtually NOYHING.
Knowledge has ntohing to do with enlightenment.
------------------------------------------

Iceman don't go there please my friend.
Knowledge has EVERY THING to do with True enlightenment.

Don't forget about those you HELPED or those you killed.

But use that experience to help others.
To help others understand what it feels to take life and for the importance of loving and understanding one another.

Please do that for my loved ones.
I saw my last Uncle today and he looks horrible!
It was like watching a nightmare but it was real!

"Melbert Walker" I posted his WWII stories on youtube.

I am trying so hard not to ball.... Tiers run down my face and I still keep typing....

OK, deep breath.

Bro Tim.
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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

March 6th, 2011, 2:16 pm #9

I'm not sure we need solutions. Really, what's the problem?

I understand the "debunkers". Really, what's there to debunk?

A much better job of "debunking" is in fact done by "believers". One in particular comes to mind, at another place, one who is in a very dark place.

I do see the "debunkers" as being a lot more constructive than most believers. But this is just an exchange of opinions. I'm not too concerned about the debate anymore.

Have a great weekend Z.
religons of Christianity are carnal interpretations that depict the persons understanding when he authored the religion:

this person may have gotten some revelation but he never REACHED the "mind of Christ" so his understanding hits a wall and gets perverted from the WHOLE TRUTH...


true revelation includes the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, the HOLY SPIRIT poured out on their flesh so they can PROPHECY which builds the house of GOD, the SOUL or Church or body of the LORD JESUS CHRIST


without this spirit of prophecy, there is no truth revealed:

it is written the witness/testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....Rev 19:10

without this experience, this WITNESS (SEEING JESUS) one can not say that their EYE HAS SEEN HIM or that they are EYE WITNESSES of the truth


they are simply speaking what others have seen, and they can't speak it as the OTHER SAW IT so they speak how they think about it...


this is religion

this has nothing to do with being a christian
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

March 6th, 2011, 2:29 pm #10

a christian is someone who has Christ "IN" them, "Christ-IN".

Christ can be on someone, meaning the anointing is on a person, but when he is "IN" that person, he is in the heart and not just leading from the outside

this distinction is made that CHRIST was the rock that led Israel in the wilderness but for Christ to MOVE from without to within, the soul itself has to bring him forth, hence become his "mother"

this is why Jesus said those who do the will of the Father become his mother and his brothers and sisters:


the level of brother is next, and this part of us reveals that NOW we have another dimension of knownig Jesus: Jesus called himself brothers of some and friends of others and yet he said to love our neighbor as ourself:

who is our neighbor? the one that we help or that part that doesn't quite understand us like a mother or brother would:

all these parts are within us to discern our own development:

every name in the BIBLE becomes a degree of understanding our relationship to God:


for instance, when we understand the name DAVID, it is because we have received that key to open what none can open and shut what none can shut:


God opens us to the experience of Christ in us and closes the ego in us, nobody else can do this in us



understanding JESUS however means we are baptized INTO THAT NAME and this is the HIGHEST UNDERSTANDING OF CHRIST that we can ever have


coming in that name means we are as he is in the world:
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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