Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

Joined: 07 Jan 2017, 09:51

24 Oct 2017, 20:05 #21

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
An argument can be made for seeing Hutton as a post WW2 player; he played for 6 seasons up to 1939 and for 10 seasons after the war. His availability for the post WW2 side changes things considerably.

A second issue has to be addressed. No "player" captained Yorkshire, in the modern era, before WW2. It could be argued, therefore, that team selection should reflect this reality. It is a parallel, but obverse, argument to that which allows the selection of Lehmann in the Post WW2 Team. The archetypal amateur was, obviously, Lord Hawke, but despite his many other qualities he could not be considered to be a great cricketer in playing terms. In fact, Wisden recognised this implicitly, towards the end of his career as YCCC captain by publishing "Lord Hawke and Four Cricketers of the Year" in the 1909 Edition. Of all the amateurs to have captained Yorkshire before 1939, the only one of greatness was F S Jackson, and therefore, he should be given serious consideration.

Thirdly, I incline to the view that players should be selected “in position”. The pre-WW2 number 3, would probably, on this basis, have to be David Denton.

With regard to the selection of spin bowlers, it is arguable that any team which has Peel or Rhodes or Verity does not need a second left arm spinner and that the inclusion of two is something of a “cop-out” in selection, as there is always a need for balance in any attack. Roy Kilner would be the obvious foil to whichever of the left armers were chosen.

Finally, the pre-eminence of David Hunter is marginal in terms of returns as Arthur Wood "lost 5 seasons to WW2. I would not quarrel with either selection, but Wood should at least appear on a shortlist.

So if “push came to shove”, then my two elevens would be:

Pre-WW2:
Holmes
Sutcliffe
Denton
Leyland
Jackson (Capt)
Kilner
Rhodes
Hirst
Macauley
Hunter/Wood
Bowes

Post WW2:
Hutton
Boycott
Root
Lehmann
Close (Capt)
Bairstow
White
Wardle
Trueman
Binks
Sidebottom

I admit to a "cop-out" on the Hunter/Wood issue, but it is intentional, as I want to see Wood's name appear on the team-sheet. Something one of his captains deliberately, as I understand it, ensured did not happen at the point at which he would have gained the record for the highest number of consecutive games played for the County. And for no other reason than Wood had been overheard looking forward to the achievement. "Have to keep these players in their place!"
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Joined: 14 Aug 2007, 12:51

24 Oct 2017, 20:46 #22

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
And in a six match series, alternately covered and uncovered wickets, (all other factors being equal), which team would win the competition?
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Joined: 21 Jun 2017, 14:21

24 Oct 2017, 22:28 #23

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
Great thread - this has taken me back to Derek Hodgson's, who died earlier this year as I am sure you all know, The Official History of YCC (£17.95 in 1989). A great read of pre-war cricketers in particular and a book if you have not got worth searching second hand shops for. It would be good to have an update in the 30 years since in a similar vein. So on re-reading what about Schofield 'sunshine' Haigh in the pre-war team - 1800 wickets at less that 16 and a batting average of just under 20.
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Joined: 17 Oct 2013, 20:44

24 Oct 2017, 23:14 #24

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
A thoughtful post from Brickyard Boy...good stuff!

I agree about FS Jackson, and he would be the obvious captain, for reasons BB explained. Absolutely outstanding Test record. Schofield Haigh, too, is a Yorkshire legend, and surely there's no place for Peel or (sadly) Roy Kilner, given the mighty presence of both Rhodes and Verity.

BB's post-war side looks immensely strong with Hutton opening, but it could be better in bowling, with only three specialists in his XI. Need to get either Illingworth or one of many the fine seamers in there, or both, at the expense of one or two of the batsmen. You can understand how selectors finish up rejecting the specialist wicket-keeper under these circumstances. But I'd still pick Binks!

You'd pay good money to watch Hutton and Root batting against Verity, on any pitch. Well I would. I suppose T20 fans would be bored.
Bowlers win matches
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Joined: 07 Aug 2014, 16:58

25 Oct 2017, 06:50 #25

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
Would they, Dave? I'm sure plenty would enjoy both, myself included.
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Joined: 21 Oct 2013, 19:24

25 Oct 2017, 06:57 #26

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
Further to Paul's post, Derek Hodgson's Official History of YCCC can be obtained for about £2.80 post-free through abebooks.co.uk
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Joined: 20 Oct 2013, 20:03

25 Oct 2017, 07:33 #27

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
I agree about Jackson. However I’m not sure there would be a problem with any captain, as long as ‘he always did what Wilfred told him.’

Nor do I see a need to choose between Rhodes and Verity. My impression is they were very different bowlers. Verity was much quicker wasn’t he?
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Joined: 27 Mar 2014, 13:24

25 Oct 2017, 08:19 #28

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
Unless we are talking about the pre war cricketers playing now and benefitting from the same advancements in Sport, then it wouldn't even be a contest between them and the modern era.

In the same way Jesse Owens 1936 wouldn't get anywhere near peak Usain Bolt!
My darling Maxi
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Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 12:57

25 Oct 2017, 08:25 #29

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
Could we pick Hutton for both sides....?
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Joined: 17 Oct 2013, 20:44

25 Oct 2017, 09:54 #30

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
I'm not sure Jackson would have done what Wilfred told him. I believe it was Jackson who recommended to His Lordship (Hawke) that Rhodes was 'the better of the two Colts' [the other one being Albert Cordingley] when a left-arm spinner was needed to replace the sacked Bobby Peel.

Unlike other amateur captains, Hawke included, Jackson was a great cricketer in his own right. [Going on stats, of course, that's all we have.]

As for the improving health and strength as the generations pass, and a possible physical mismatch between the two eras - would the pre-war bunch be able to cope with a potential pace attack of Trueman + any of several? - I am not sure, for two reasons.

One is that cricketers DO span the generations successfully. As Rhodes himself did, and more recently the likes of Boycott, Close, Illingworth and indeed Sidebottom. As 'old men' none of these got blown away by the younger generation.

The other reason is that the playing of cricket in England has shrunk to perhaps a tenth of what it was, when every little school, every village and many industrial firms all had their own grounds and own teams, when cricket was played in the street and on the beach, when it was very much the people's summer game. There were so many cricketers to choose from, so much competition at every level, it's hard to imagine this didn't result in higher standards at the top end.

Bolt might have beaten Owens (though did Owens run in modern shoes on a synthetic track?) but I'm damn sure Jack Brooks or Ben Coad wouldn't beat Fred Trueman! Not at bowling or anything else. And that's not a slight on two fine modern players, believe me.

Bowlers win matches
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