Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

Joined: 14 Aug 2007, 12:51

23 Oct 2017, 07:07 #11

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
I agree with Dave's evaluation of Binks completely and would have him in the post-war side. I never had the good fortune to see Wardle play but would certainly defer to Dave on that selection. Most of my elders speak of him as a true great.
I part Company with him on Boycott's opening partner. To prefer McGrath over Vaughan seems perverse. The issue of a third seamer to complement Trueman and Sidebottom is less clear cut. Hoggard is an excellent choice. My own preference would be for Chris Old.
For me: Dave's team; with Vaughan for McGrath and Old for Hoggard.
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Joined: 17 Oct 2013, 20:44

23 Oct 2017, 09:37 #12

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
I can't believe I forgot Phil Sharpe. So many good players to choose from! But he was just the best slip-catcher of all time; his batting would be about on a par with McGrath, Vaughan, Moxon, etc, so he would be another opening option, the only position where there is not a wealth of talent.

I always preferred the solidity of McGrath to Vaughan's more exotic strokeplay. Mags was a superb player of really fast bowling and was unlucky to have a dip in form in his early 20s, just as Vaughan was kicking on towards the England team.

To try to prove my point, I once took the trouble to compare figures of the two of them IN MATCHES IN WHICH BOTH PLAYED. Actually, there wasn't much in it, with Mags winning but only by a fraction of a run per innings. Mags was much the better fieldsman, though. Try not to remember him as the fat man who went on a season too long. Players deserve to be remembered for their best years.
Bowlers win matches
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Joined: 28 Jun 2017, 18:19

23 Oct 2017, 10:44 #13

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
Yes, very interesting topic- could, and should, go on all winter.
So many outstanding players that I think we could pick 2 or 3, more or less, equal teams-especially post war. For me, one absolutely outstanding player was, as Idle Man said earlier, Bob Appleyard MBE. He had a short career but managed 208 wickets in one season and many Aussies said he was the best bowler they had seen from these shores. That was in Hutton's Ashes success in the 50's.
His book-"No Coward Soul"- written with the help of Stephen Chalke- Published 2008- is still available on Amazon and is a brilliant read.
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Joined: 17 Oct 2013, 20:44

23 Oct 2017, 11:54 #14

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
I saw relatively little of Bob Aoppleyard. In any case I was too young to appreciate him in his breakthrough season. But I met an old guy, Sussex or Somerset, who insisted Appleyard was the best of the lot, a truly great bowler.

The pre-war generation venerated Hedley Verity, perhaps the greatest spin bowler of all time, and a man much loved and respected for his integrity and general bearing and conduct - something Appleyard and Wardle never aspired to, if the stories are true.

In my Cambridge University days (early 60s) I played against people who had met Wardle in Minor Counties cricket - he played for Nelson Saturdays and Cambridgeshire mid-week, following his sacking by Yorkshire. These guys were in awe of his talent, but scared stiff of his lashing tongue. He thought nothing of publicly humiliating teammates, especially those who dropped catches off his bowling.
Bowlers win matches
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Joined: 06 Nov 2013, 09:50

23 Oct 2017, 14:57 #15

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
I see that there is no debate so far about the pre ww2 team. Presumably this is because you would need to be well turned 90 to have any meaningful memory of their comparable abilities. We rely instead on contemporary written and oral accounts.
Even post war players in their pomp in the 40's and 50's are hazy to many of us.
Certain questions come to mind which would influence selection.
Would the games be played over 3 or 4 days ?
Would the pitches be covered or uncovered ? This would determine the extent of the involvement of attacking spin bowlers, and the quality of 'keeper required.
Which no ball rule would be invoked - front or back foot ? This might make a difference to the selection of quick bowlers.
Which LBW rule would operate ? Some batsmen would have difficulty with the old rule.
Do we permit helmets ? If not, courage would become as important as technique.

If we are not comparing like with like, selection becomes haphazard and increasingly subjective.
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Joined: 14 Aug 2007, 12:51

23 Oct 2017, 15:06 #16

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
We've focussed on finessing the post-war team. Perhaps there's scope to concentrate on their opponents.
None of us, I think, are in a position to judge them on much other than statistics and eye-witness accounts.
It occurs to me, however, that Gavin's team is very heavily weighted towards the inter-war years.
I feel sure a few sprightly 130 year olds might want to sing the praises of FS Jackson (surely a shoe-in to replace Ticker Mitchell at five) or Bobby Peel. Perhaps they'd want to refer us to the views their parents held about 'Silver Billy' Bates or Tom Emmett.

I wish we had a time-machine that would enable us to judge some of the golden-age greats who played on wickets flattened by horse-drawn rollers and who wore cane pads and flimsy gloves and used raw meat to protect their palms if they stood behind the wicket.
I feel sure that some of them, at least, would deserve to represent the pre-war eleven and do it proud.
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Joined: 14 Aug 2007, 12:51

23 Oct 2017, 15:08 #17

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
I see Jolly D and I have been musing on similar things almost simultaneously!
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Joined: 14 Aug 2007, 12:51

23 Oct 2017, 15:08 #18

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
I see Jolly D and I have been musing on similar things almost simultaneously!
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Joined: 04 Jun 2015, 18:32

23 Oct 2017, 17:33 #19

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
Ok pre war team.

I'm not sure about Hutton at 3. I'd omit Holmes and let Len open with Herbert.

This then leaves room to pick Lord Hawke who would be needed to manage the other 10 and ensure a few of them got a bowl otherwise Verity and Bowes may never get the ball from Kirkheatons double act.

Wasn't Hunter like Binks and basically a great keeper who batted 11?

It's a tad unfair that we allow the post war team to have an overseas player but not the pre war side although I suspect only Bradman is good enough to merit consideration. Perhaps Hawke being born in Lincolshire should class as the outsider?

And I'd pick Peel ahead of Macaulay just for the added entertainment factor.
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Joined: 17 Oct 2013, 09:52

24 Oct 2017, 14:51 #20

Who would you pick to be in each team. Players like Len Hutton who played before and after the war can only appear in one team.

My teams are;

Pre-ww2; Sutcliffe, Holmes, Hutton, Leyland, Mitchell, Rhodes (c), Hunter (D)(w), Hirst, Verity, Macaulay, Bowes.
Post-ww2; Boycott (c), Root, Lehman (D), Bairstow (J), Ballance, Blakey(w), Trueman, Gough, Old, Wardle, Hoggard.
One fairly strong candidate for the post-war side, surely - G St A Sobers, given that we managed to sneak him in in 1964, although I'd hate to see Boof miss out

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/the-n ... rian-close

ps would like this thread to last through Christmas
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