Joined: March 24th, 2011, 11:36 pm

May 26th, 2018, 3:36 am #41

ADP wrote:
May 25th, 2018, 2:37 pm
I think Rmor has taken his мяч and gone home....
Very good. :-)
Last edited by Rmor on May 30th, 2018, 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A Moron Is Governing America

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Joined: March 1st, 2005, 3:53 pm

May 26th, 2018, 3:49 am #42

Well, he does have a point - sort of - about the USSR defeating Japan "in early WW2" - if you include a series of border skirmishes involving fairly small forces, that resulted finally in a cease-fire on 15 Sept. 1939, followed by a neutrality pact.


The Battle of Lake Khasan (July 29, 1938 – August 11, 1938) and also known as the Changkufeng Incident (Chinese: 张鼓峰事件; pinyin: Zhānggǔfēng Shìjiàn, Japanese pronunciation: Chōkohō Jiken) in China and Japan, was an attempted military incursion from Manchukuo (by the Japanese) into territory claimed by the Soviet Union. This incursion was founded in the belief of the Japanese side that the Soviet Union misinterpreted the demarcation of the boundary based on the Convention of Peking treaty between Imperial Russia and the former Qing-Dynasty China (and subsequent supplementary agreements on demarcation), and furthermore, that the demarcation markers had been tampered with. The Japanese 19th division expelled a Soviet garrison from the disputed area, and repulsed numerous counterattacks by an overwhelmingly more numerous and heavily armed Soviet force. Both sides took heavy losses, though Soviet casualties were nearly three times higher than Japanese casualties, and they lost dozens of tanks. The conflict was resolved diplomatically on August 10, when the Japanese ambassador in Moscow asked for peace. The Japanese troops withdrew the next day, and the Soviets again occupied the now-empty area.


The Battle of Khalkhin Gol, sometimes spelled Halhin Gol or Khalkin Gol after the Halha River passing through the battlefield and known in Japan as the Nomonhan Incident (after a nearby village on the border between Mongolia and Manchuria), was the decisive battle of the undeclared Soviet–Japanese Border War. After a series of skirmishes in May and June 1939, the incident escalated into a series of engagements where both sides deployed corps-sized forces, though the Soviets were again far more numerous and more heavily armed than the Japanese. There were three principal engagements:
  • The initial Japanese attack in July (July 2-25), intended to wipe out the materially and numerically superior Soviets. The Soviets suffered very heavy losses compared to the Japanese and minor gains were made by the Japanese, but stubborn resistance and an armored counter-blow stalled the Japanese attack. It drifted into a stalemate with minor skirmishing over the next few weeks.
  • The failed Soviet probing attacks in early August (August 7/8 and August 20) which were thrown back with no gains and considerable casualties. In the intermediate period between these three phases, the Soviets built up their forces, while the Japanese were forbidden from doing so for fear of escalating the conflict.
  • The successful Soviet counteroffensive in late August at Nomonhan with a fully built-up force that encircled the remains of the 23rd division and by August 31 had destroyed all Japanese forces on the Soviet side of the river.
In this engagement the Soviets and Mongolians defeated the Japanese, and expelled them from Mongolia.
The Soviet Union and Japan agreed to a cease-fire on 15 September, which took effect the following day. Free from a threat in the Far East, Stalin proceeded with the Soviet invasion of Poland on 17 September.


As a result of the Japanese defeat at Khalkhin Gol, Japan and the Soviet Union signed the Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact on 13 April 1941, which was similar to the German–Soviet non-aggression pact of August 1939.

Later in 1941, Japan would consider breaking the pact when the German Third Reich invaded the Soviet Union (Operation Barbarossa), but they made the crucial decision to keep it and to continue to press into Southeast Asia instead. This was said to be largely due to the Battle of Khalkhin Gol. The defeat there caused Japan not to join forces with Germany against the Soviet Union, even though Japan and Germany were part of the Tripartite Pact.
There it is... the District of Columbia! You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.
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Joined: July 8th, 2007, 8:30 pm

May 29th, 2018, 5:45 pm #43

bager1968 wrote: Well, he does have a point - sort of - about the USSR defeating Japan "in early WW2" - if you include a series of border skirmishes involving fairly small forces, that resulted finally in a cease-fire on 15 Sept. 1939, followed by a neutrality pact.
Except those were prior to the start of WW2.  I.e. before WW2.  Even if you date the start of the war from the Marco Polo Bridge incident those battles were independent of that conflict and a neutrality pact was signed in the Spring of 41.  No he doesn't have a point if that's what is being talked about.  The Soviets did do quite well vs the Japanese at the very very late in the war but that's not "in early WW2" either.
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Joined: March 1st, 2005, 3:53 pm

May 30th, 2018, 4:21 am #44

Some historians consider many of the conflict points closely leading up to September 17 1939 as part of WW2 - the invasion of the Sudetenland/Czechoslovakia in Sept. 1938/March 1939, the Anschluss in Austria in March 1938, the occupation of the Rhineland in 1936... and yes, the Japanese invasion of China in July 1937 (starting with the Marco Polo Bridge incident).

And many of these historians are "in the west", so it is not just a Russian view that the Japanese-Soviet border clashes in 1938+ are actually part of WW2.
There it is... the District of Columbia! You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.
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Joined: March 24th, 2011, 11:36 pm

May 30th, 2018, 9:16 am #45

You know I only included that reference to that border clash between russia & japan in an effort to thwart pedantry, as I'd wrote "all russias woes came at them from the west" and I was expecting some pedantic snot to butt in with "All? So what about the japanese in 39?".

So in avoiding one trap, I created another. Ca la vie.
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Joined: July 8th, 2007, 8:30 pm

May 30th, 2018, 1:54 pm #46

bager1968 wrote: Some historians consider many of the conflict points closely leading up to September 17 1939 as part of WW2 - the invasion of the Sudetenland/Czechoslovakia in Sept. 1938/March 1939, the Anschluss in Austria in March 1938, the occupation of the Rhineland in 1936... and yes, the Japanese invasion of China in July 1937 (starting with the Marco Polo Bridge incident).

And many of these historians are "in the west", so it is not just a Russian view that the Japanese-Soviet border clashes in 1938+ are actually part of WW2.
If one takes that line of thinking to it's logical conclusion then WW2 is really just part of WW1 which is part of the Franco-Prussian War which ...
Not totally unreasonable but IMO not very useful either.
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Joined: November 21st, 2010, 12:24 am

May 30th, 2018, 2:41 pm #47

Rmor wrote: You know I only included that reference to , as I'd wrote "all russias woes came at them from the west"
Since, I take it, you don't count as a "woe" Russia's joint invasion of Poland with the Nazis.

Aside from Barbarossa, the USSR suffered no "woes" aside from its own murderous tyrants. The Victim Card don't play Bubi.
The difference between "democracy" and "populism" is whether or not the ruling elite likes the outcome.
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Joined: March 24th, 2011, 11:36 pm

May 31st, 2018, 9:36 am #48

IcelofAngeln wrote:
May 30th, 2018, 2:41 pm
Rmor wrote: You know I only included that reference to , as I'd wrote "all russias woes came at them from the west"
Since, I take it, you don't count as a "woe" Russia's joint invasion of Poland with the Nazis.

Aside from Barbarossa, the USSR suffered no "woes" aside from its own murderous tyrants. The Victim Card don't play Bubi.
Seeing as you're so knowledgable, what were Reinhard Heydrichs thoughts regards the treatment of europes jews in 1938?

And did you ever find a source stating "the nazis stopped jewish emigration from the territory they controlled from 1938"?

I would have thought you'd be keen to back up your statments as without any truth to them they are the empty wafflings of a lazy mind.


viewtopic.php?f=75&t=37195&p=654622&hil ... ch#p654622
A Moron Is Governing America

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Joined: November 21st, 2010, 12:24 am

May 31st, 2018, 12:37 pm #49

Deflecting like mad.
The difference between "democracy" and "populism" is whether or not the ruling elite likes the outcome.
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Joined: October 20th, 2005, 10:23 pm

September 12th, 2018, 3:17 pm #50

Its an interesting question though- which came first- USS United States or the Russian interest in "carrier killing" submarines and aircraft/guided missiles? Carrier based strategic bomber attacks were part of the US war plans in the fifties..

(Speaking as a Brit whose navy was effectively defeated by the cold war arms race)
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