The truth about wind and solar power

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Joined: August 30th, 2005, 9:15 am

February 13th, 2018, 6:08 am #111

Divide the 'subsidy' by the energy produced per year
"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters."
- Frank Lloyd Wright (1868-1959)
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Joined: January 7th, 2005, 11:25 am

February 13th, 2018, 6:27 am #112

The standard of argument in those charts is closely akin to the “Moral equivalence ” argument, you know there is no right or wrong, we are all genocidal kinda horsecrap, pulled out of the same playbag, by the same watermelons.

So now we are all subsidisers too hey? If there is no subsidy, then invent one (playbook).

But just tell me, I want to build a new mine next year and need 30MW power house that runs night and day, windy or calm. Where the hell do I apply for a subsidy for any of the oil/gas options? (30MW probably a bit small for coal).My shareholders would just love a nice fat fossil fuel subsidy, and so would my bankers.
"The stone age did not end because people ran out of stones." Ahmed Yamani
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Joined: January 18th, 2007, 6:06 am

February 13th, 2018, 7:59 pm #113

Cody2, you have a point re: people voting on what they do not understand but would you prefer the alternative?

At present I feel that the people in the UK have an advantage on those in the US. We still get much of our media input from newspapers which, although not impartial, support alternative political views and offer a somewhat balanced picture. Plus they would be only too happy to denounce a rival if they played foul. Those in the US however seem to get much of their information from news channels that have their own agenda. Rival channels may offer alternatives but only those that actively seek to read them would be aware.
When I buy my paper I make a point of checking alternative papers, not just the headlines, but the previews on the front page of important items carried inside. I might well give these a quick check at the stand or occasionally even buy the other paper for a change 
There have been a number of times people here have posted fake facts in the belief that their sources were right.
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Joined: January 19th, 2011, 11:33 pm

February 14th, 2018, 1:55 am #114

Throd wrote: Cody2, you have a point re: people voting on what they do not understand but would you prefer the alternative?

At present I feel that the people in the UK have an advantage on those in the US. We still get much of our media input from newspapers which, although not impartial, support alternative political views and offer a somewhat balanced picture. Plus they would be only too happy to denounce a rival if they played foul. Those in the US however seem to get much of their information from news channels that have their own agenda. Rival channels may offer alternatives but only those that actively seek to read them would be aware.
When I buy my paper I make a point of checking alternative papers, not just the headlines, but the previews on the front page of important items carried inside. I might well give these a quick check at the stand or occasionally even buy the other paper for a change 
There have been a number of times people here have posted fake facts in the belief that their sources were right.
1.  It depends on the alternative.  Sometimes, I'd rather the government not be in charge of one given thing or another.

I'd tend to put the government in charge of less, and let capitalist run more.  After all, it's their skin in the game, if they don't know what they're doing, it's their money that's being wasted.  Things like power utilities would seem an excellent example of something that seems to work better with less government involvement.  I've said before the US typically succeeds not because of it's government, but in spite of it's government.  Almost anytime the US puts it's government in charge of something, we find a unique and special way to screw it up so it doesn't actually work.

2.  I don't think you can make that generalization.  The US has quite a few news papers.  Every city of any significance at all has a paper, and major cities have several print papers.  Plus, many many national magazines about almost every subject you might imagine.  That's just the print media.  There is also a huge online media outlets provided by more or less traditional print media outlets.

One thing I'll note is that most of the polls I've seen suggest that younger Americans prefer to read their news from online outlets, rather than watch it on the news.  Myself, I hate being shouted at by the idiot box, so I almost can't "watch the news".  For some reason cable news tends to have anchors and special effects that make me think they are shouting at me.  I tend to read articles online published by more or less traditional print media outlets.  At least anecdotally I'm far from unique for "Millennials".  Some online media is free, and some is behind a pay wall.  Both appear to be viable business models.

Fake news happens, even with traditional printed media.  It's simply a question of how often, and what the source does when they find out they are wrong.
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Joined: August 30th, 2005, 9:15 am

February 14th, 2018, 6:42 am #115

I vaguely remember some damn fool libertarian arguing that any state funded infrastructure was abhorrent. When asked if he only drove on toll roads he shut up. To my mind there is a good argument in favor of non-profit driven ownership of networks (in general), such as roads, waterpipes, sewage, electricity to the premises (not so fussed about generators) , railway lines.  In more diffuse cases like radio waves and perhaps telephone cords perhaps it does not matter as much. The efficiency of private enterprise for any given one on one installation is offset by duplication and lack of supply to unprofitable locations. My rule of thumb is that half the money that the government rips from me is wasted. My other rule of thumb is I like 40% profit margins. So there isn't much difference between good businesses and the gummint to the end user except I get money back from shares.
"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters."
- Frank Lloyd Wright (1868-1959)
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Joined: January 18th, 2007, 6:06 am

February 14th, 2018, 12:29 pm #116

I am prepared to stand corrected but it still gets back to my original question of where do the fake news statements posted here come from? The posters seem to accept them at face value. Is it what they want to read?
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Joined: January 14th, 2013, 4:04 pm

February 14th, 2018, 12:34 pm #117

Fake news such as we are facing a global warming crisis?  Is that the fake news you are talking about?
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Joined: November 13th, 2008, 10:19 pm

February 14th, 2018, 2:14 pm #118

The problem with broadcast news, and documentary, is that it's also entertainment.  Which is why i too can't watch most of either, I'd spend 95% waiting for the 5% I haven't already heard and you can't skim through to the interesting bits.  Add grating styles of presentation and the decision's made.
What really grips me is web sites that assume I can't read what's there and run an idiotic video to show me with lots of noise and bollocks.  Not only irritating but also a waste of my limited data allowance.
"Be harmonious, enrich the soldiers, and scorn all other men"

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster himself."

"We take pride in the terminatory service we provide"
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Joined: July 18th, 2008, 4:31 pm

February 14th, 2018, 3:01 pm #119

Chris,

Gods yes!   Totally agree about the inbedded videos.   Esp. the ones that autoplay!
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Joined: January 19th, 2011, 11:33 pm

February 14th, 2018, 3:20 pm #120

Throd wrote: I am prepared to stand corrected but it still gets back to my original question of where do the fake news statements posted here come from? The posters seem to accept them at face value. Is it what they want to read?
It would almost have to be.  Anyone that posts here has an internet connection, and access to sites like Google News, or Yahoo News.  Then it's a straight forward search to come up with dozens, hundreds, or thousands of articles on almost any topic that might be discussed.  From that point, you can pick variations of outlets almost effortlessly, and pick articles that fulfill your desired bias.

All news is strongly influenced by selection bias.  If the news papers print things their customers don't want to read, then they don't buy the paper.  If radio or TV broadcast stuff their listeners don't want to hear, the channel gets changed.  The same is true of online publishers, but with even greater ability to pick a different outlet.  It's almost effortless for a extremely minor online news outlet to publish something that most of the world REALLY wants to be the case, and get coverage everywhere in the world.

Of course the major outlets know that, and they make sure to cover every topic that they can, with whatever attention grabbing information that they can, regardless of if it's true or not.  Online news is famous for it's click-bait which is EXACTLY this.  TV and radio news are famous as "entertainment programs."  Print media is famous for it's "yellow journalism".  This is the power of selection bias.  Even major outlets get hit by the affect.
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