RCN General News & Articles

The navies of nations spawned by Great Britain.
MattReloaded
Joined: 29 Nov 2004, 07:40

03 Dec 2017, 20:45 #471

Spoz wrote: Surely Gibbs and Cox where the main designers of the CG47s and DDG51s?  My understanding is that Alion now provides shipbuilding integration services; but only in the last ten years or so.
Alion purchased JJMA (John J. McMullen & Associates) back in 2005.
"We need to get closer to that Dane mentality" - Rear Admiral Bryant Fuller, NAVSEA Chief Engineer, March 2015 ASNE Day.
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ThePointblank
Joined: 21 Oct 2015, 02:58

06 Dec 2017, 03:12 #472

This article seems to confirm that Odense and ThyssenKrupp have bowed out of the competition:

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/lib ... uch-as-32b

Also, the unsolicited bid from DCNS and Fincantieri has been rejected.
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Spoz
Joined: 07 Oct 2009, 04:39

06 Dec 2017, 03:21 #473

MattReloaded wrote:
Spoz wrote: Surely Gibbs and Cox where the main designers of the CG47s and DDG51s?  My understanding is that Alion now provides shipbuilding integration services; but only in the last ten years or so.
Alion purchased JJMA (John J. McMullen & Associates) back in 2005.

Yes, but JJMA didn't have much input to the Tics or the Arleigh Burkes, in a design sense so far as I can ascertain.
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ThePointblank
Joined: 21 Oct 2015, 02:58

06 Dec 2017, 04:09 #474

Spoz wrote:
MattReloaded wrote:
Spoz wrote: Surely Gibbs and Cox where the main designers of the CG47s and DDG51s?  My understanding is that Alion now provides shipbuilding integration services; but only in the last ten years or so.
Alion purchased JJMA (John J. McMullen & Associates) back in 2005.

Yes, but JJMA didn't have much input to the Tics or the Arleigh Burkes, in a design sense so far as I can ascertain.
Alion's own website indicates they are involved in the DDG51 design, and the most recent contract indicates that they've been involved in the DDG51 flight upgrades since the programme’s inception.
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Spoz
Joined: 07 Oct 2009, 04:39

06 Dec 2017, 04:38 #475

It's probably a matter of semantics, and the mods to the original design were considerable, but to me that's design modification - the designer was the group (G&C) who designed the original ship.  But the point's really not worth that much discussion, I wouldn't think - although I agree that Alion's presence in a bid team is a plus.
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ThePointblank
Joined: 21 Oct 2015, 02:58

06 Dec 2017, 05:11 #476

Spoz wrote: It's probably a matter of semantics, and the mods to the original design were considerable, but to me that's design modification - the designer was the group (G&C) who designed the original ship.  But the point's really not worth that much discussion, I wouldn't think - although I agree that Alion's presence in a bid team is a plus.
Alion's probably done enough to the DDG51 design to pretty much make the design their own. I imagine the first DDG51 off the line is no longer similar to the DDG-51's being built now.

I would agree with you that Alion Canada's bid with the De Zeven Provinciën-class frigate is probably a major contender in the competition. They are the only ones with a proven design (maybe slightly modernized, especially with the radars) that needs little modifications, which means less risk and possible cost inflation.

I've also read more info on the Navantia bid; per Naval Recognition, this is what their configuration looks like:




There is a 127mm main gun, 2x RAM launchers by Raytheon, 2x 35mm Millenium CIWS guns, 48x VLS and 8x RBS-15 Mk3 anti ship missiles. They are using the Saab 9LV combat management system, and the radar they are choosing is the CEA CEAFAR2 radar instead of the AEGIS combat system with the SPY-1D radar.

Basically, it is going to be almost the same ship as the one they are offering to Australia as their SEA5000 proposal.
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jack wyatt
Joined: 19 Sep 2017, 01:18

06 Dec 2017, 08:02 #477

ThePointblank wrote:
Spoz wrote: It's probably a matter of semantics, and the mods to the original design were considerable, but to me that's design modification - the designer was the group (G&C) who designed the original ship.  But the point's really not worth that much discussion, I wouldn't think - although I agree that Alion's presence in a bid team is a plus.
Alion's probably done enough to the DDG51 design to pretty much make the design their own. I imagine the first DDG51 off the line is no longer similar to the DDG-51's being built now.

I would agree with you that Alion Canada's bid with the De Zeven Provinciën-class frigate is probably a major contender in the competition. They are the only ones with a proven design (maybe slightly modernized, especially with the radars) that needs little modifications, which means less risk and possible cost inflation.

I've also read more info on the Navantia bid; per Naval Recognition, this is what their configuration looks like:




There is a 127mm main gun, 2x RAM launchers by Raytheon, 2x 35mm Millenium CIWS guns, 48x VLS and 8x RBS-15 Mk3 anti ship missiles. They are using the Saab 9LV combat management system, and the radar they are choosing is the CEA CEAFAR2 radar instead of the AEGIS combat system with the SPY-1D radar.

Basically, it is going to be almost the same ship as the one they are offering to Australia as their SEA5000 proposal.
Thanks for the advice.  The version offered to the RAN incorporates the AEGIS CMS with SAAB 9LV interface and CEAFAR2.   The two RAM launchers are interesting.
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OldNick
Joined: 18 Oct 2014, 18:37

06 Dec 2017, 10:26 #478

CBC News Dec 05 
The French/Italian joint "bid" with FREMM was not submitted by 30 November deadline for the ~C$60B contract for the 15 frigates.
(Fincantieri complained Canada was asking for too much intellectual property data in its submission and there were also concerns about the transfer of top secret government-to-government information on systems such as radar and combat management equipment.)

BUT
Instead Naval Group and Fincantieri delivered its unsolicited proposal directly to Canadian Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan, claiming $32 billion cheaper than the existing project estimate, 3 of the 15 warships to be built in Europe with fix price guarantee and to start construction of the first FREMM at the Irving Shipyard in Halifax in 2019. At $1.3 billion per ship, but the final contract price will have to be defined by Irving Shipbuilding Inc.

A Canadian government spokesperson said "To be clear, any proposals submitted outside of the established competitive process will not be considered." Also said to to undermine the national shipbuilding strategy.

Presumably that leaves only three bidders LM Canada/BAE 6,900T/8,000T EOL? Type 26 / the 7,400T EOL Navantia F105 with the Australian SEA 5000 bid and the dark horse Alion/Damen with version of the 6,000T HNLMS De Zeven Provincien.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/frigate ... -1.4432705

? Fincantieri bid with FREMM for FFG(X) - C$1.3 billion = ~ $1 billion 
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MattReloaded
Joined: 29 Nov 2004, 07:40

06 Dec 2017, 19:25 #479

OldNick wrote: CBC News Dec 05 
The French/Italian joint "bid" with FREMM was not submitted by 30 November deadline for the ~C$60B contract for the 15 frigates.
(Fincantieri complained Canada was asking for too much intellectual property data in its submission and there were also concerns about the transfer of top secret government-to-government information on systems such as radar and combat management equipment.)

BUT
Instead Naval Group and Fincantieri delivered its unsolicited proposal directly to Canadian Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan, claiming $32 billion cheaper than the existing project estimate, 3 of the 15 warships to be built in Europe with fix price guarantee and to start construction of the first FREMM at the Irving Shipyard in Halifax in 2019. At $1.3 billion per ship, but the final contract price will have to be defined by Irving Shipbuilding Inc.

A Canadian government spokesperson said "To be clear, any proposals submitted outside of the established competitive process will not be considered." Also said to to undermine the national shipbuilding strategy.

Presumably that leaves only three bidders LM Canada/BAE 6,900T/8,000T EOL? Type 26 / the 7,400T EOL Navantia F105 with the Australian SEA 5000 bid and the dark horse Alion/Damen with version of the 6,000T HNLMS De Zeven Provincien.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/frigate ... -1.4432705

? Fincantieri bid with FREMM for FFG(X) - C$1.3 billion = ~ $1 billion 
Canada Turns Down FREMM bid for CSC while Naval Group & Fincantieri Stick to their Guns
"We need to get closer to that Dane mentality" - Rear Admiral Bryant Fuller, NAVSEA Chief Engineer, March 2015 ASNE Day.
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MattReloaded
Joined: 29 Nov 2004, 07:40

06 Dec 2017, 23:05 #480

Bold move backfires as Canada declines Naval Group-Fincantieri frigate offering

PARIS, ROME, and VICTORIA, British Columbia — Naval Group and Fincantieri are out of the running to compete in Canada’s program to acquire a fleet of new surface combatants after they failed to submit a bid through the formal process and instead sent a proposal directly to the Canadian government.
"We need to get closer to that Dane mentality" - Rear Admiral Bryant Fuller, NAVSEA Chief Engineer, March 2015 ASNE Day.
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