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Whatever you do, don't mention the Vickers Virginia, with twice the range and a greater payload than the Martin NBS-1, erm, "heavy" bomber. That might be unkind.edgeworthy wrote:Ah well a 150 Combat Radius would put Halifax outside operational parameters as well.MarkLBailey wrote: Edgeworthy:So Ikky got it wrong again. Will marvels never cease. The best US bomber of the era has an effective combat radius of not more than 150 miles in perfect conditions. Ikky's apparently a pilot, and ascribes to aircraft in the 1920s the operational characteristics and procedures of modern aircraft. If he bothered to read any of the stories of 1920s aviation, he'd quickly find out that flying on very dirty and waxy 70 octane straight run petrol to ~82 octane leaded fuels was a chancy business. It was quite common to be forced down by fuel blockages, for example. And metallurgical failures under vibration were very common.Not to mention that Portsmouth Royal Naval Dockyard built HMS Sirius, a Dido Class Cruiser, whilst simultaneously being bombed by the Luftwaffe. And from much closer airfields with more advanced planes.
Or that Malta remained operational, HMS Illustrious docked for emergency repairs at the time of greatest hazard. While being the most bombed spot of WW2. And the Sicilian Narrows are a considerably shorter distance than that of any between a US airbase and a British Dockyard.
Its 776 miles from Bar Harbor to St John's by air, the word Ludicrous is completely applicable for any air arm in the 1920's.
(Its 619 miles from San Juan to Port of Spain, Trinidad ... or about twice the distance between Scapa Flow and Norway.)
I would try to argue that the phrase "with any sort of preparation" does imply deployment in a pre-war time of tension, but what would be the point?
(Or that any wartime re-deployment would obviously be escorted ... or "If the enemy is in range so are you!")
Its 244 miles from Bar Harbor.
(Should we mention that the Vickers Virginia, the successor to the Vimy and in service by 1925-27, has over twice the range and a greater payload than the Martin NBS-1)
And how is the USN supposed to launch a carrier attack on Bermuda when to do so would mean passing the RN, it is afterall the Homeport for the North America Station, and the Royal Navy will be seeking a decisive engagement. And with only 1 Carrier, and that Langley?
I think we're probably all in agreement that regardless of how practical we might think an actual advance from Italy and Greece might have been, the Germans cannot ignoe the threat and must deploy accordingly. It also would have a serious effect on the willingness of leadership and people to continue.stevep59 wrote:ChrisPat wrote: An advance from the south in 1918 might be easier to say than do but the prospect of one is obvious and the leaders of Germany wouldn't have missed their entire southern flank dissolving.
True but its a potentially very large flank and where are they going to find troops to cover it. That I think was the original point, although we may have drifted a bit. The threat of such an advance, when Germany is already seeing what's left of its army starting to crumble means their stretched even thinner.
With an onion tied to their belts, as that was the style in those days.ChrisPat wrote: "Planes like Grandad flew! Mahogany turnbuckles!" Real Aviation.
Which is kinda what we discussed a while back, with Italy being forced to sue for peace from Austria-Hungary, then Austria-Hungary being forced out of the war by its own internal turmoil and economic failure. So we have a pretty solid line of reasoning for how WWI ends in this scenario and yes, it means Austria-Hungary will survive in a reduced form.Dave AAA wrote: Agreed. We're all on the same page here.
So from 1923 the US Administration (President Cox) which has continued the 1916 program and built a lot of DD starts to look at seizing territory if people cannot pay off debts, using the French occupation of the Ruhr as a pretext.Periods
First Armistice (11 November 1918 – 13 December 1918)
First prolongation of the armistice (13 December 1918 – 16 January 1919)
Second prolongation of the armistice (16 January 1919 – 16 February 1919)
Third prolongation of the armistice (16 February 1919 – 10 January 1920)
1920: Foundation of Inter-Allied Rhineland High Commission (10 January 1920, Versailles Treaty paragraphs 428–431)
1930: under the terms of the 1925–26 Locarno Treaties, Allied troops withdrew
1936: Remilitarization of the Rhineland by German troops under Hitler, on March 7
A Belgian soldier guarding the Ober-Kassel-Düsseldorf bridge in February 1919
This consisted of 20,000 soldiers (five divisions) with its headquarters at Aachen, and with its troops stationed in Krefeld. They were commanded by Armand Huyghé.
The British Army entered German territory on 3 December 1918. The British Army of the Rhine was established as the occupying force in March 1919. Based at Cologne, they published The Cologne Post.
French troops observing the Rhine at Deutsches Eck, Koblenz.
Chicago Daily Tribune, 6 March 1923, announcing French troops killing 5 resisting Germans on its front page
The French Eighth and Tenth armies originally constituted the French forces involved in the occupation. On 21 October 1919, they were combined to form the French Army of the Rhine.
In 1919 France stationed between 25,000 and 40,000 French colonial soldiers in the Rhineland. Some German women married African soldiers from the occupying forces, while others had children by them out of wedlock (hence the disparaging label "Rhineland Bastards") and were considered by right-wing Germans to constitute a public disgrace. General Henry Tureman Allen reported to the US Secretary of State that from the start of the occupation until June 1920 there were 66 cases of formal accusations against colored colonial troops, out of which there were 28 convictions, and admits there were many more unreported cases. Despite these occasional cases, "the wholesale atrocities by French negro Colonial troops alleged in the German press, such as the alleged abductions, followed by rape, mutilation, murder and concealment of the bodies of the victims are false and intended as political propaganda".
Frankfurt occupation, 1920
Main article: French occupation of Frankfurt
French occupation of Frankfurt occurred from 6 April to 17 May 1920. On the second day nine civilians were shot by Moroccan troops in an incident outside the Hauptwache. This incident was used to launch a racist campaign against the French use of colonial troops, linking the incident with allegations of wide spread assaults by Black soldiers in the French occupation army on local women including accusations of systemic rape and other atrocities targeting the German civilian population and attributed mainly to Senegalese Tirailleurs. The events resulted in a widespread campaign by the German right-wing press, which dubbed them as "The Black Shame" (Die schwarze Schande or Die schwarze Schmach) and depicted them as a form of French humiliation of the German nation.
Ruhr occupation, 1923
In 1923, in response to German failure to pay reparations under the Treaty of Versailles, France and Belgium occupied the industrial Ruhr area of Germany, most of which lies across the river on the West bank of the Rhine, until 1925. Many Germans were killed during civil disobedience protests. e.g. against dismissal of German officials.