NavWeaps Discussion Boards

Andy01 wrote: The KM and RM combined was about equal in size to the IJN, but of course we also have to add in the Luftwaffe and RAI.  It was very rare for USN ships to undergo sustained aerial attack by the IJNAF/IJAAF with no USN air cover. Consider the sinking of HMS Mashona and this extract from HMS Tartar's report:
"...It is believed that all attacking aircraft were H.E. 111's. Occasionally a F.W. Condor was seen shadowing astern. It is estimated that about 50 aircraft took part in the attacks over a period of 13 hours..." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Tartar_(F43) ).

Consider the Battle for Crete where for most of the battle RN ships were operating within close range of Luftwaffe bases while beyond the range of RAF and FAA aircover; the USN never experienced anything similar. 

CA railwhale wrote:

Andy01 wrote: . . . Consider the sinking of HMS Mashona . . .

The Tartar was under attack by 50 He 111 LEVEL BOMBER . . . Plus what was the last, or first time, for that matter that a DD under way was hit, let alone sunk by a level bomber?

bager1968 wrote: HMS Mashona was also a Tribal class DD.

Dave AAA wrote:

CA railwhale wrote:

Andy01 wrote: . . . Consider the sinking of HMS Mashona . . .

The Tartar was under attack by 50 He 111 LEVEL BOMBER . . .  Plus what was the last, or first time, for that matter that a DD under way was hit, let alone sunk by a level bomber?

To answer your question:

HMS Mashona was sunk by those He-111 that were attacking her and Tartar that day.  

I imagine those fifty bombers came in bunches, not one every fifteen minutes.  Depending on how many aircraft attacked at a time, that might have been a heavier than average attack even by Pacific standards.

History shows that horizontal bombers couldn't even hit BBs and CVs, let alone DDs.

Dave AAA wrote:

History shows that horizontal bombers couldn't even hit BBs and CVs, let alone DDs.

It rather depended on their weapons load and tactics.  Medium bombers often carried torpedoes and often used skip bombing rather than level bombing.  I would think it more likely than not that these aircraft were from a maritime strike unit rather than one that normally did interdiction or strategic bombing of land targets.  By mid 1941, German maritime strike units were fairly effective.

Someone on Tartar, at least, must have thought they were a threat.  They expended "290 rounds of 4.7", 255 rounds of 4", 1,000 rounds of pom pom and 750 rounds of .5 machine gun ammunition" according to the source cited in the Wikipedia article on Tartar already mentioned.  If they were close enough to get .50 attention, they must have been flying something other than a medium to high level horizontal bombing profile.

CA railwhale wrote:

Dave AAA wrote:Someone on Tartar, at least, must have thought they were a threat.  They expended "290 rounds of 4.7", 255 rounds of 4", 1,000 rounds of pom pom and 750 rounds of .5 machine gun ammunition" according to the source cited in the Wikipedia article on Tartar already mentioned.  If they were close enough to get .50 attention, they must have been flying something other than a medium to high level horizontal bombing profile.

As far as I know the Germans never used skip bombing
Not skip bombing but very low level bombing.  Condors passed over so low that vertical flame thrower was trialled.  The Holman Projector had an altitude of about 600' bur German attacks were deterred by them.

Since the Vickers had tracers and the 2 pounder didn't, I could see the Vickers crew firing to break up attacks at high altitude.  As for the  main battery expenditure, that's only fifty rounds per gun over a period of thirteen hours, that's an average of four rounds per hour per 4.7 inch gun and 19 rounds per hour of 4 inch.   It sounds like the four inch crew was busy and everyone else was taking an occasional pot shot.  Realistic threat or not, a ship under attack is going to fire every effective weapon at it's disposal for deterrence value if nothing else.
Taking your bold to be true I'd read it as all guns that could bear firing when within range.  Five times more 4" than 4.7" because the 4" would fire throughout an attack but the 4.7" only when the targets were within their elevation.  Perfectly possible for a fairly low level attack to pass briefly through the 4.7" engagement band then the Pom pom, then the 0.5" with the 4" firing throughout.  No need to invent a reason for trained 0.5" gunners to waste ammunition in Ineffective fire.
If they were trying to simulate the Pom poms - even if 4" or 4.7" fired tracer which I doubt they didn't fire it in bursts - then the would fire at the same time as the Pom poms. Same number of barrels in arc most likely, Vickers being mounted off of the centreline,   450 rpm vs 96rpm when targets are within Pop pom range should mean nearly five times as much 0.5" fired as 2pdr, not 4:3 the other way.

CA railwhale wrote: ....  But none of that refutes the fact that few, if any, other DDs were sunk by level bombers in WWII.

CA railwhale wrote:

Andy01 wrote: The KM and RM combined was about equal in size to the IJN, but of course we also have to add in the Luftwaffe and RAI.  It was very rare for USN ships to undergo sustained aerial attack by the IJNAF/IJAAF with no USN air cover. Consider the sinking of HMS Mashona and this extract from HMS Tartar's report:
"...It is believed that all attacking aircraft were H.E. 111's. Occasionally a F.W. Condor was seen shadowing astern. It is estimated that about 50 aircraft took part in the attacks over a period of 13 hours..." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Tartar_(F43) ).

Consider the Battle for Crete where for most of the battle RN ships were operating within close range of Luftwaffe bases while beyond the range of RAF and FAA aircover; the USN never experienced anything similar. 

The Tartar was under attack by 50 He 111 LEVEL BOMBERS;  plus 13 hours divided by  50 bombers works out to slightly less than FOUR aircraft attacks per hour.  That's not heavy air attack by any rational standard.  Plus what was the last, or first time, for that matter that a DD under way was hit, let alone sunk by a level bomber?