Joined: April 6th, 2018, 5:55 am

April 14th, 2018, 11:23 pm #361

Andy01 wrote: The KM and RM combined was about equal in size to the IJN, but of course we also have to add in the Luftwaffe and RAI.  It was very rare for USN ships to undergo sustained aerial attack by the IJNAF/IJAAF with no USN air cover. Consider the sinking of HMS Mashona and this extract from HMS Tartar's report:
"...It is believed that all attacking aircraft were H.E. 111's. Occasionally a F.W. Condor was seen shadowing astern. It is estimated that about 50 aircraft took part in the attacks over a period of 13 hours..." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Tartar_(F43) ).

Consider the Battle for Crete where for most of the battle RN ships were operating within close range of Luftwaffe bases while beyond the range of RAF and FAA aircover; the USN never experienced anything similar. 
The Tartar was under attack by 50 He 111 LEVEL BOMBERS;  plus 13 hours divided by  50 bombers works out to slightly less than FOUR aircraft attacks per hour.  That's not heavy air attack by any rational standard.  Plus what was the last, or first time, for that matter that a DD under way was hit, let alone sunk by a level bomber?
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 10th, 2005, 2:54 pm

April 15th, 2018, 1:03 am #362

CA railwhale wrote:
Andy01 wrote: . . . Consider the sinking of HMS Mashona . . .
The Tartar was under attack by 50 He 111 LEVEL BOMBER . . . Plus what was the last, or first time, for that matter that a DD under way was hit, let alone sunk by a level bomber?
To answer your question:

HMS Mashona was sunk by those He-111 that were attacking her and Tartar that day.

I imagine those fifty bombers came in bunches, not one every fifteen minutes. Depending on how many aircraft attacked at a time, that might have been a heavier than average attack even by Pacific standards.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 1st, 2005, 3:53 pm

April 15th, 2018, 1:19 am #363

HMS Mashona was also a Tribal class DD.
There it is... the District of Columbia! You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 6th, 2018, 5:55 am

April 15th, 2018, 3:51 pm #364

bager1968 wrote: HMS Mashona was also a Tribal class DD.
She's got to be the only destroyer ever sunk by level bombers.  From my reading level bombers normally couldn't even hit slow merchant ships.  From further research, it looks like her skipper was more worried about running out of fuel than avoiding air attacks.  Even then 50 aircraft carrying 8 550 pound bombs each only managed one hit, and that hit wouldn't have been fatal on a older, two stacked British DD, or a Japanese, German or American DD all of which had unit machinery that prevented one ht from flooding all boiler rooms.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 6th, 2018, 5:55 am

April 15th, 2018, 4:36 pm #365

Dave AAA wrote:
CA railwhale wrote:
Andy01 wrote: . . . Consider the sinking of HMS Mashona . . .
The Tartar was under attack by 50 He 111 LEVEL BOMBER . . .  Plus what was the last, or first time, for that matter that a DD under way was hit, let alone sunk by a level bomber?
To answer your question:

HMS Mashona was sunk by those He-111 that were attacking her and Tartar that day.  

I imagine those fifty bombers came in bunches, not one every fifteen minutes.  Depending on how many aircraft attacked at a time, that might have been a heavier than average attack even by Pacific standards.
Even if the aircraft came in bunches, which they probably did, that's what, five to ten at a time? maybe even twenty split between two targets.  History shows that horizontal bombers couldn't even hit BBs and CVs, let alone DDs.  Mashona got hit by a golden BB.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 10th, 2005, 2:54 pm

April 15th, 2018, 7:31 pm #366

History shows that horizontal bombers couldn't even hit BBs and CVs, let alone DDs.
It rather depended on their weapons load and tactics.  Medium bombers often carried torpedoes and often used skip bombing rather than level bombing.  I would think it more likely than not that these aircraft were from a maritime strike unit rather than one that normally did interdiction or strategic bombing of land targets.  By mid 1941, German maritime strike units were fairly effective.

Someone on Tartar, at least, must have thought they were a threat.  They expended "290 rounds of 4.7", 255 rounds of 4", 1,000 rounds of pom pom and 750 rounds of .5 machine gun ammunition" according to the source cited in the Wikipedia article on Tartar already mentioned.  If they were close enough to get .50 attention, they must have been flying something other than a medium to high level horizontal bombing profile.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 6th, 2018, 5:55 am

April 16th, 2018, 4:38 am #367

Dave AAA wrote:
History shows that horizontal bombers couldn't even hit BBs and CVs, let alone DDs.
It rather depended on their weapons load and tactics.  Medium bombers often carried torpedoes and often used skip bombing rather than level bombing.  I would think it more likely than not that these aircraft were from a maritime strike unit rather than one that normally did interdiction or strategic bombing of land targets.  By mid 1941, German maritime strike units were fairly effective.

Someone on Tartar, at least, must have thought they were a threat.  They expended "290 rounds of 4.7", 255 rounds of 4", 1,000 rounds of pom pom and 750 rounds of .5 machine gun ammunition" according to the source cited in the Wikipedia article on Tartar already mentioned.  If they were close enough to get .50 attention, they must have been flying something other than a medium to high level horizontal bombing profile.
As far as I know the Germans never used skip bombing and the only hit was from a 250 kilo bomb so torpedoes were probably out as well.  As for fifty cal, the M2 had a maximum anti-aircraft altitude of 15,000 feet and a maximum effective altitude of 5,000 feet. the quad Vickers wasn't as good; it had a maximum AA range of about  15,000 feet and a maximum effective range of 2400 feet.  Since the Vickers had tracers and the 2 pounder didn't, I could see the Vickers crew firing to break up attacks at high altitude.  As for the  main battery expenditure, that's only fifty rounds per gun over a period of thirteen hours, that's an average of four rounds per hour per 4.7 inch gun and 19 rounds per hour of 4 inch.   It sounds like the four inch crew was busy and everyone else was taking an occasional pot shot.  Realistic threat or not, a ship under attack is going to fire every effective weapon at it's disposal for deterrence value if nothing else.  But none of that refutes the fact that few, if any, other DDs were sunk by level bombers in WWII.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: November 13th, 2008, 10:19 pm

April 16th, 2018, 2:12 pm #368

CA railwhale wrote:
Dave AAA wrote:Someone on Tartar, at least, must have thought they were a threat.  They expended "290 rounds of 4.7", 255 rounds of 4", 1,000 rounds of pom pom and 750 rounds of .5 machine gun ammunition" according to the source cited in the Wikipedia article on Tartar already mentioned.  If they were close enough to get .50 attention, they must have been flying something other than a medium to high level horizontal bombing profile.
As far as I know the Germans never used skip bombing
Not skip bombing but very low level bombing.  Condors passed over so low that vertical flame thrower was trialled.  The Holman Projector had an altitude of about 600' bur German attacks were deterred by them.

Since the Vickers had tracers and the 2 pounder didn't, I could see the Vickers crew firing to break up attacks at high altitude.  As for the  main battery expenditure, that's only fifty rounds per gun over a period of thirteen hours, that's an average of four rounds per hour per 4.7 inch gun and 19 rounds per hour of 4 inch.   It sounds like the four inch crew was busy and everyone else was taking an occasional pot shot.  Realistic threat or not, a ship under attack is going to fire every effective weapon at it's disposal for deterrence value if nothing else.
Taking your bold to be true I'd read it as all guns that could bear firing when within range.  Five times more 4" than 4.7" because the 4" would fire throughout an attack but the 4.7" only when the targets were within their elevation.  Perfectly possible for a fairly low level attack to pass briefly through the 4.7" engagement band then the Pom pom, then the 0.5" with the 4" firing throughout.  No need to invent a reason for trained 0.5" gunners to waste ammunition in Ineffective fire.
If they were trying to simulate the Pom poms - even if 4" or 4.7" fired tracer which I doubt they didn't fire it in bursts - then the would fire at the same time as the Pom poms. Same number of barrels in arc most likely, Vickers being mounted off of the centreline,   450 rpm vs 96rpm when targets are within Pop pom range should mean nearly five times as much 0.5" fired as 2pdr, not 4:3 the other way.
"Be harmonious, enrich the soldiers, and scorn all other men"

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster himself."

"We take pride in the terminatory service we provide"
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 8th, 2007, 8:30 pm

April 16th, 2018, 4:05 pm #369

CA railwhale wrote: ....  But none of that refutes the fact that few, if any, other DDs were sunk by level bombers in WWII.
Well there was Mutsuki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ ... er_Mutsuki
And Yayoi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ ... (1925[/url)
And Oboro
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ ... (1930[/url)
and possibly Hayashio:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ ... r_Hayashio
These from the list at:
http://www.ww2pacific.com/japdd.html
And all in 42
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: August 4th, 2008, 5:03 am

April 16th, 2018, 5:48 pm #370

CA railwhale wrote:
Andy01 wrote: The KM and RM combined was about equal in size to the IJN, but of course we also have to add in the Luftwaffe and RAI.  It was very rare for USN ships to undergo sustained aerial attack by the IJNAF/IJAAF with no USN air cover. Consider the sinking of HMS Mashona and this extract from HMS Tartar's report:
"...It is believed that all attacking aircraft were H.E. 111's. Occasionally a F.W. Condor was seen shadowing astern. It is estimated that about 50 aircraft took part in the attacks over a period of 13 hours..." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Tartar_(F43) ).

Consider the Battle for Crete where for most of the battle RN ships were operating within close range of Luftwaffe bases while beyond the range of RAF and FAA aircover; the USN never experienced anything similar. 
The Tartar was under attack by 50 He 111 LEVEL BOMBERS;  plus 13 hours divided by  50 bombers works out to slightly less than FOUR aircraft attacks per hour.  That's not heavy air attack by any rational standard.  Plus what was the last, or first time, for that matter that a DD under way was hit, let alone sunk by a level bomber?
Tartar and Mashona were critically low on fuel and could not use high speed in consequence.  ~50 attack sorties is a large scale attack even when delivered over many hours and SOP for Luftwaffe level/glide bomber attack against isolated ships was for single aircraft to attack in turn to reduce AA hit probability and force large expenditures of ammunition by the defending ships. HMS Gurkha was sunk by level bomber on 9 April 1940. A number of RN destroyers were hit and sunk/scuttled by level bombers in the ETO/MTO. Bomber hit probability was very low but the destroyers endured hundreds of attack sorties and often a near miss was sufficient to sink or cripple a destroyer.

Regarding AA expenditure from Tartar, SOP against destroyers was also to try and attack from the rear, to wood the forward guns, and also wood the HADT.  Tartar and Mashona had been diverted from a troopship escort mission and probably were only carrying a very limited supply of TM fuzed HE.
Quote
Like
Share