In 1921 The Washington Naval Conference is called and Germany goes

Joined: June 16th, 2012, 4:15 am

December 20th, 2017, 4:40 pm #1

So we have a German win in 1917 and the US did not enter the war .

At the battle of Jutland Vice-Admiral Sir David Beatty's battlecruiser squadrons were sunk at the Battle of Jutland , with only loss on the German side being 1 BattleCruiser and some minor ships .
The Battlecruiser Fleet under David Beatty: six battlecruisers, four fast Queen Elizabeth-class battleships, 14 light cruisers and 27 destroyers was sunk as they ran into the German High sea Fleet and the German Battlecruiser squadrons.

   The treaty that ended the Great war was more along the line we will pack up our toys and go home on the Western front .

Both sides gave the other side $1 each for damages . Now Serba was dismembered and turned into a big hunting reserve and its people sent out to find a hew home land . Russia lost the most land and lost all of the lands of Russian Poland to Poland and Finland , and the Ukraine .

In 1921 The Washington Naval Conference is called .
The German navy has finish its BC that were laid down and the Battle ships .
And German Navy has build and launched 2x L20e Battleships
The German oversea territories were returned .
Let argue over how much of the German navy she keeps and why .

The L 20 e project

Displacement: Standard: 42,000 - 42,600 tons.
Full load: 47,000 - 47,600 tons.
Dimensions: Length overall: 235m (770.9ft) up to 237m (777.5ft).
Beam: 32m (104.9ft).
Design draught: 9.0m (29.5ft).
Complement: Estimated to be in between 1,100 – 1,300 officers and men.
Main armament: Eight x 42cm (16.5in) SK L/45 guns in a 4 x2 arrangement,
Secondary armament: Twelve × 15cm (5.9in) SK L/45 guns in casemates,
Eight × 8.8cm (3.45in) or 10.5cm (4.1in) Flak L/45 guns,
Three × 60cm (23.6in) or 70cm (27.6in) torpedo tubes.
Machinery: Steam turbines.
Number of boilers: Twenty-two Schulz-Thornycroft.
Coal fired boilers: Sixteen.
Oil fired boilers: Six.
Number of Shafts: Four.
Power: 100,000shp.
Bunkerage: Coal: 2,950 tons.
Fuel oil: 1,970 tons.
Maximum speed: 22.5 knots.
Armour: Belt: 350mm -130mm.
Bulkheads: 250mm 60mm.
Battery deck: 170mm.
Barbettes: 350mm – 150mm.
Turrets: 350mm – 150mm.
Command Tower: 250mm – 100mm.
Armoured deck: 120mm – 50mm.

GK 4541 Large Combat Ship Design Was laid down in 1920
Standard: 45,000 tons.
Full load: Unknown.
Length overall: 240m (787.40ft).
Beam: 33.5m (109.9ft).
Design draught: 10m (32.8ft).
Complement: Unknown.
Main armament: Eight x 42cm (16.5in) SK L/45 guns in a 4 x 2 arrangement,
Secondary armament: Eight × 15cm (5.9in) SK L/45 guns in casemates,
Four × 15cm (5.9in) FlaK L/45 guns, One × 70cm (27.6in) torpedo tube.
Machinery: Steam turbines.
Number of boilers: Twenty-eight.
Coal fired boilers: Sixteen.
Oil fired boilers: Twelve.
Number of Shafts: Four.
Power: 160,000shp.
Coal: 3,000 tons.
Fuel oil: 2,000 tons.
Maximum speed: 30.5 knots.
Armour: Belt: 300mm -150mm.
Bulkheads: 300mm - 150mm.
Battery deck: 20mm.
Barbettes: 350mm – 100mm.
Turrets: 350mm.
Command Tower: 350mm front, 250mm rear.
Armoured deck: 100mm.

And there were 8 laid down in the Class laid down between 1920
and Aug. 1921

Joined: May 12th, 2004, 9:51 am

March 3rd, 2018, 12:04 am #2

Germany wouldn't sign;   there would be no treaty.  After all, they'd have Northeast (the industrial part) of France and most of Belgium under their control.  They'd also have Poland and a chunk of what had been Russia, under puppet governments if not direct control.
This is not a signature.

Joined: August 24th, 2007, 11:14 pm

March 3rd, 2018, 12:44 am #3

No way in hell you get a WNT if Germany won, or even drew, WWI.

This one, as far as the treaty goes, is ASB.
You can lead a leftard to knowledge, but you can't make them think

Joined: July 18th, 2008, 4:31 pm

March 5th, 2018, 1:56 pm #4


From the line in Ward's post, "pack up our toys and go home on the Western Front", I'd read that to mean the boarders return to their pre-war locations, so no Belgium (de-militarized?) and returning French territories occupied to France (likely less a bit of kit).

So if the author of the AH gave some reasons, such as not wanting to participate in another naval arms race like the one the happened in the years leading up to "the Great War", it could be justified without requiring ASB intervention.   Your mileage may vary.

The Royal Navy would have been building to replace their losses at Jatland as well in this AH.  Plus Germany has a number of obsolete pre-dreadnoughts as well as the obsolescent “hex” layout triple expansion steam engine powered dreadnoughts of the Nassau and Helgoland classes.   And the Kaisers and Konigs have only 12” guns.
These facts would provide some grist for the author’s mill.   So depending on how many of the Bayerns were completed in this AH (I’d guess all four), the Kaiserliche Marine has only six modern battle ships and nine 12” armed turbine powered dreadnoughts.

Joined: May 12th, 2004, 9:51 am

March 7th, 2018, 6:02 pm #5

By mid-1916 or early 1917, before US entry, there was no chance Germany would win;  even then, their peace proposal was probably even nastier than Versailles is considered to be:  Belgium and much of German-occupied France would remain under German suzerainty.  

Germany would absolutely not sign a treaty to reduce armaments unless they had been thoroughly beaten and the junker class disenfranchised.  They wouldn't negotiate one either;  they'd dictate one.
This is not a signature.

Joined: August 24th, 2007, 11:14 pm

March 8th, 2018, 10:19 pm #6

Ok lets put the absolutley correct ASB side of things away and build this fleet.

I will assume that the so called victory was close one and Germany has been finacialy depleted and is therefore uncharacteristicly willing to consider arms reduction (yeah i know bullsh*t), GB will still be relativly strong but has lost some ships and is breaking the bank to replace them, GB will push for the Germans to have Japan's ratio.

ok Germans 10

4x Baden
4xMackesen (possibly still completing)
2xDerflinger in lieu of incomplete Mackensen
2ximproved mackensen to be converted to carriers (or the 45000 ton ship mentioned in the OP)

British 15

this will be tricky as the OP suggests that 4 QEs are gone

7-8xRevenge (Renown and Repulse completed as designed, 8th ship pushed through?)
1-3 Admiral class, construction accelerated due to loss of fast ships. (possibly later ships to a better design, Light battle crusiers canceled/neverstarted)
2-3 16" to be asked for, however due to the size of the Admirals this number may be contested by the US
in lieu of incomplete16" and Admirals,  4xIron Duke Remain in service
1-2 Admirals to be converted to carriers

Joined: October 1st, 2017, 5:39 pm

March 13th, 2018, 2:24 pm #7

It would not matter. Twenty years later "The Great War; Part 2" would break out on schedule. One war per generation having become the norm for Europe. All your pretty toys would end up irrelevant, hiding in port, wandering around looking for a shore target to take pot shots at, or holding down the bottom of the ocean. Between the advent of aviation and submarines they had become irrelevant status symbols.

Joined: April 10th, 2005, 2:54 pm

March 14th, 2018, 6:01 am #8

That's not what happened in real life, so why would it have happened in this circumstance?

Joined: June 12th, 2005, 6:18 am

March 14th, 2018, 5:42 pm #9

German victory at Jutland doesn’t translate to victory in WW1.  It could be part of the picture mind you but by itself it’s not enough.  No US entry helps but more details are needed.  

IMO any naval agreement between UK and Imperial Germany gets done as part of a peace treaty.  I don’t see UK accepting a HSF as large as RN.  A HSF 50% to 60% size of UK is best I see flying.  
Just my $0.02 worth