Joined: 4:39 AM - Oct 07, 2009

12:12 AM - Aug 06, 2018 #51

I’m not planning to continue a discussion with somebody whose mind is closed to the issue.

Oh, and do you understand the function of a capability sponsor?  It is not to procure solutions.
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Joined: 2:54 PM - Apr 10, 2005

3:15 AM - Aug 06, 2018 #52

I'm actually interested in what a capability sponsor does.

I also understand the ships were in worse condition than expected? Should that not have been caught before acquisition?
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Joined: 2:54 PM - Apr 10, 2005

3:17 AM - Aug 06, 2018 #53

I'm actually interested in what a capability sponsor does.

I also understand the ships were in worse condition than expected?  Should that not have been caught before acquisition?  How much did that really matter?
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Joined: 4:39 AM - Oct 07, 2009

3:39 AM - Aug 06, 2018 #54

What the capability sponsor does, or at least did in 1992, was to define a need for a capability for consideration by FDA and the others in the approval process, government eventually, and then onward to the (then) Defence Acquisition Organisation to procure the solution.  The description is simplistic but the process was not, and it was iterative.  The function is still performed but the terminology has moved on and of course organisations and processes have changed considerably.

I can't comment on whether the condition was worse than expected; we knew they had had more than 20 years fairly hard usage and therefore were unlikely to be in great nick, but then the acquisition price was low.  I was not part of the team that inspected them in the US; I did go over them shortly after arrival in Aust although by then I was in another job.  At that time they looked like what they were - elderly ships in need of TLC, but with potential.
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Joined: 2:54 PM - Apr 10, 2005

4:14 AM - Aug 06, 2018 #55

Thanks!  

Buying used is always a bit of an issue.  It's not like you can easily have them taken to your local garage and have a mechanic look them over. You also do tend to get what you pay for.   

Australia isn't the only country that's had this issue.  Canada got a bit stung with the Upholder/Victorias, finding that they hadn't been kept up as well as we had thought.
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Joined: 7:51 AM - Jun 18, 2015

7:10 AM - Aug 06, 2018 #56

Spoz wrote: I’m not planning to continue a discussion with somebody whose mind is closed to the issue.

Oh, and do you understand the function of a capability sponsor?  It is not to procure solutions.
You won't discuss it because your justifications are weak.

You're the one who raised your position as the capability sponsor, as if that gave you authority on the subject.  Your assertion that "Bill and Ben were the only way for the RAN to continue to expand the amphib capability after the THSS was lost." is ridiculous.  They were the 2 least suitable ships for the intended role.  Their low price should have been the first clue, the amount of modification the second and the amount of rectification work needed a third.  They may have been cheap to buy but soaked up HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars over the allotted budget, were years late and barely made 11 years service.  All they achieved was to prove they needed to be replaced.  All that money and resources didn't just fall from the sky, it came from the rest of the fleet.
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Joined: 2:58 AM - Oct 21, 2015

11:34 PM - Aug 07, 2018 #57

Dave AAA wrote: Thanks!  

Buying used is always a bit of an issue.  It's not like you can easily have them taken to your local garage and have a mechanic look them over. You also do tend to get what you pay for.   

Australia isn't the only country that's had this issue.  Canada got a bit stung with the Upholder/Victorias, finding that they hadn't been kept up as well as we had thought.
The problem with the Upholder/Victoria's is primarily due to politics; when the RN originally offered them up to Canada, it was going to be a straight transfer as the vessels were still in RN service. The Canadian government then dithered, not wanting to proceed with the deal because of political optics (Canada had a crushing budget deficit and didn't want to be seen spending money while trying to fix the deficit), and as the Canadian government dithered, the British retired the ships and placed them in storage waiting on our response.

Then, when the Canadian government finally gave the approval to go ahead with the purchase, the subs had sat in storage for close to 4 years.
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