info for my future project is needed

info for my future project is needed

Joined: January 30th, 2018, 7:16 am

January 30th, 2018, 7:25 am #1

Hello there.

First of all, thank you for your interesting and informative site.
Please help me with some information from your site according arkhitectural artikles and planning design of some objects. I would like to use this info for my project wich is dedicatet to Armenian heritage on the territory of modern day Turkey.

Please look at the project via link-https://issuu.com/davidgrigoryan87/docs ... _________2

Thank you
Best regards

David Grigoryan
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VirtualAni
VirtualAni

January 31st, 2018, 3:40 am #2

I know that some Russian tour guides have been presenting these structures as converted churches but they are not - they always were what they currently are - a medrese (the Chifte Minare Medresesi) and a mosque (the citadel mosque) - and they are (ignoring recent Turkish over restorations at the medrese) structurally unchanged from their original forms. Both are orientated north-south, not east-west. Whatever existed before these buildings were constructed is unknown - so although it is possible that they were built on the locations of destroyed churches, it would be just speculation. The only surviving church in the urban center of Erzurum is the "Iron Market church", a former Greek church now converted to a mosque.
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Joined: January 30th, 2018, 7:16 am

March 29th, 2018, 8:26 am #3

Good day. Thank you for reply.

1st-So, you want to say, that 2 my photos of modern mosques in Erzurum it is NOT a former armenian churches?
Please look at the pictures on the page #8-9 https://issuu.com/davidgrigoryan87/docs ... _________2

2nd quetion-please, can i use some text info about few objects from your site to my future book. I will refer to virtualani.com.

Best regards
David Grigoryan
Odessa, Ukraine
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A.Schauer
A.Schauer

April 1st, 2018, 6:10 pm #4

David,
these buildings are neither 'modern mosques' nor 'transformes Armenian churches". The foto on page 8 for example shows the türbe of the 13th century seljuq Çifte Minareli Medrese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87ift ... li_Medrese).
Cultures tend to influence other cultures as well as they are influenced themselves by others. That explains why some medieval islamic madrasas and türbes bear typical Armenian features. On the other hand a lot of Armenien Churches or other buildings have typical islamic elements as for example muqarnas (e.g.https://www.virtualani.org/zor/index.htm) or resemble even full-föedged mosques (e.g.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vank_Cathedral).
If you are really working seriously on a book try to work at least on a minimum scholarly level.
All the best
Alex
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VirtualAni
VirtualAni

April 2nd, 2018, 1:01 pm #5

Good day. Thank you for reply.

1st-So, you want to say, that 2 my photos of modern mosques in Erzurum it is NOT a former armenian churches?
Please look at the pictures on the page #8-9 https://issuu.com/davidgrigoryan87/docs ... _________2

2nd quetion-please, can i use some text info about few objects from your site to my future book. I will refer to virtualani.com.

Best regards
David Grigoryan
Odessa, Ukraine
Yes, they are both not Armenian churches. The first is the mausoleum attached to the south end of the Chifte Minare Medresesi. The second view, of the citadel, shows the clock tower (probably a converted minaret) on the left, and the citadel mosque on the right. The citadel mosque has an unusual design that is very church-like, so it may have had Armenian influences or had Armenian masons working on it, but it was never a church. Because its structure is incorporated into the wall of the citadel, forming a tower on the exterior, it is very unlikely it was built on the site of a church. There has been a lot of recent excavations done inside the citadel and around the mausoleum - but I don't know if anything specifically Armenian was found (or if they would have been honestly reported in Turkish publications even if such things were found). You are welcome to use any VirtualAni text if it is useful to you - and thanks for your interest in this site, and in the subject matter in general.

PS, the Hampikian photos of Varagavank and Arakelots are pre-genocide and not from 1923. The 1923 date is just the date of first publication in America.
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Joined: January 30th, 2018, 7:16 am

April 11th, 2018, 8:57 am #6

Alex, thank you for reply.
So, there is not any armenian church in Erzurum?
I found unfo (but only on russian) that armenian church bell still in this building, which i thought was armenian church, but you say it is mosque-https://k-markarian.livejournal.com/158147.html (photo # 14) Just want you rcomment according this.

2nd- I found in village of Por ( Degirmenalti) ruins of arm.church, but i didnt found any info about it even on your site, please look at the picture on the page- 26-28. I would like to know at least name of the church.
All the best,
David
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VirtualAni
VirtualAni

April 11th, 2018, 4:40 pm #7

I have already explained that (12) and (13) was never a church and was built as a mosque and is orientated north-south. The claimed Armenian church bell (14) was actually cast in Croydon, England, in the 19th century, and is (and always has been) a clock tower bell. These details are cast into the bell's side. The bell tower is a converted minaret - it has nothing to do with anything Armenian but is part of the 19th-C Ottoman obsession with clocks and clock towers. To claim that a kumbet (22) is an old Armenian church is displaying a lack of even the most basic understanding of the region's architectural history, or he is deliberately being deceptive. (21) is just a chamber in the castle, it is not a church. (3) is a medrese and was built as a medrese. If that livejournal author had real knowledge of Erzurum's history he would know that in 1919 this same medrese was part of a concentration camp prison where the region's few remaining Armenians were imprisoned and staved or worked to death. I recall in the 1990s telling a group of genocide-denying English archaeologists headed by Chris Lightfoot about this historical fact, in a restaurant opposite that medrese, and then deciding for my own safety to leave Erzurum early the following morning after Lightfoot had threatened that "someone" should report me to the authorities. Lightfoot actually sent a report of his encounter with me to the director of the British Institute in Ankara, presumably hoping the information would then be leaked to the Turks. He didn't assume that my journey from Erzurum would be via Ankara and the Institute. Coincidentally, on Lightfoot's desk (he was assistant director at the time) at the institute was a draft of a letter he was writing in reply to a British student wanting to come to Turkey to study Armenian inscriptions. Lightfoot's reply stated that everything had already been recorded and translated and the student would be wasting his time studying this field. Really, that livejournal Erzurum writing is a pile of garbage compared to the sort of article someone with a deep knowledge of Erzurum could have written about Erzurum and about Turkey's Armenian past and the attempts to suppress and destroy it.

PS - Por is herehttps://www.virtualani.org/por/index.htm
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Anonymous
Anonymous

April 16th, 2018, 2:12 am #8

Seems Lightfoot is now at the Met Museum:

https://www.metmuseum.org/about-the-met ... staff-list
http://metmuseum.academia.edu/CLightfoot

Seems like he wants to be remembered more for his Graeco-Roman expertise and excavations at Amorium than seditious acts Erzurum
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VirtualAni
VirtualAni

April 16th, 2018, 2:49 pm #9

His reason for being in Erzurum was the Satala excavations - his entire team were also genocide deniers. Like almost all AG deniers, he has the obligatory Turkish wife.

Lightfoot's long term significance will have been his role as a "gatekeeper", one who made sure only those who shared his outlook were able to advance their academic careers and obstructing the advancement of dissenting voices or those interested in studying "inconvenient" subjects. The generation he enabled in the 1990s will eventually be in positions to become gatekeepers in turn, and Lightfoot himself was only able to advance because he followed the line demanded by an earlier generation of gatekeepers.
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Joined: January 30th, 2018, 7:16 am

April 20th, 2018, 8:27 am #10

Seems Lightfoot is now at the Met Museum:

https://www.metmuseum.org/about-the-met ... staff-list
http://metmuseum.academia.edu/CLightfoot

Seems like he wants to be remembered more for his Graeco-Roman expertise and excavations at Amorium than seditious acts Erzurum
Thank you for your emails.
I contact you soon.
David
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