It pays to shop around...

It pays to shop around...

technoguy
technoguy

August 9th, 2005, 4:45 pm #1

A few posts back I described how whenever I came close to getting my "dream" watch, something would happen that would mess it all up and I would be left, yet again, frustrated and annoyed.

In my previous post I related how I had ordered a new Orient military style watch from a popular cable tv watch show, was assured that it would arrive on a certain date, and then waited and waited and waited only to eventually realize that it had be "lost" by the United States Postal Service.

Well, check out this little item I just found on eBay. It's also an Orient watch with that new photoluminescent paint (Seiko's "LumiBrite"). It's got their 21 jewel, in house movement, but no power reserve indicator. However, it is supposed to be a Rolex "style" watch that seems to be based on their Presidential model. I had issues with wearing a steel watch on one wrist and a gold bracelet on the other. Now, with a two tone watch, I think I'll look a little more color coordinated. It cost $65 USD plus $9 for Priority Mail (hope they don't "lose" this one too!) and the watch is supposed to regularly retail for $175 USD.

Below is a nice close up of the watch's dial which is described as "white" although it looks silver to me. If I squint my eyes just right, this looks pretty close to the real thing! The advantages of purchasing a Rolex "style" watch like this from a major Japanese manufacturer as opposed to some shady online Rolex replica dealer is that one has a very good chance of actually receiving the ordered item!

a very happy technoguy!
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RMF
RMF

August 9th, 2005, 9:06 pm #2

but I see the letter "T" following the code numbers below the six marker. Are you sure this watch doesn't use a Tritium based lumi paint?
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technoguy
technoguy

August 10th, 2005, 1:17 am #3

Actually, I kind of assumed that this watch uses Seiko's "LumiBrite" photoluminescent paint because the other Orient watch I almost got, a more "high end" one that they make, used this material. I did personally verify that the other Orient I was going to get used the new photoluminescent material so I figured this one, which is also a recent model by Orient, would too.



I noted that the Rolex style watch I just purchased has WHITE luminescent paint on its hands and markers. About 99% of the tritium containing radioluminescent paints have a greenish tinge to them. This is because they must add a trace amount of copper (I'm not exactly sure what form of copper...might be cupric oxide, CuO, which is the same compound that makes copper roofs look green over time) to the paint to act as an "exciter" and help it produce its maximum amount of glow. The new photoluminescent paints use blends of rare earth metals as exciters and these are colorless when added to their base material of strontium aluminate, a compound which is white.



When I ordered the present Rolex style Orient watch from the eBay seller, the images in his listing came through on my PC with a little bit of blur to them (due to me using an "accelerated" setting on my 56 kbps phone connection which can degrade image quality) so I could not read the lettering/numbers below the 6 o'clock marker. I assumed that it just said something like "Japan movement" or something to that effect.



Anyway, you say you see the letter "T" which, if that is the case is a bad sign from my point of view! However, maybe you are seeing the last letter in the watch's model reference number. The official model designation and reference number is:



MEN'S ORIENT PRESIDENTIAL ROL-X STYLE REFERENCE NO.2EV03000WY



That "Y" could almost look like a "T" if one does not have good resolution on an image.



Anyway, when the watch arrives, I am going to give it my "standard" test for tritium which involves me waiting until about 1 a.m. in the morning before I open the package in pitch darkness with dark adapted eyes. If it has tritium, then it will be glowing. If it does not have tritium, then it will not glow.



If it does have tritium, then I do not want the item and will not wear it. However, I can not return it to the seller because "all sales are final" unless the watch is defective. Of course, I consider ANY timepiece containing a radioisotope as being "defective", but the seller would probably disagree. Well, if I can not use it, then maybe I'll offer it for sale on this forum's shopping page. If it does not move there, then I'll try putting it up for auction on eBay. The problem with that alternative is that I do not have a PayPal account and would require the buyer pay me by US Postal Money Order which, unfortunately, is somewhat inconvenient for people. Seems like everybody has a credit card today...and the debt that goes with it!



technoguy



P.S. If this watch does have tritium based lume on it then, once again, it will be my "curse" working against me...
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EdH
EdH

August 10th, 2005, 4:20 am #4

A few posts back I described how whenever I came close to getting my "dream" watch, something would happen that would mess it all up and I would be left, yet again, frustrated and annoyed.

In my previous post I related how I had ordered a new Orient military style watch from a popular cable tv watch show, was assured that it would arrive on a certain date, and then waited and waited and waited only to eventually realize that it had be "lost" by the United States Postal Service.

Well, check out this little item I just found on eBay. It's also an Orient watch with that new photoluminescent paint (Seiko's "LumiBrite"). It's got their 21 jewel, in house movement, but no power reserve indicator. However, it is supposed to be a Rolex "style" watch that seems to be based on their Presidential model. I had issues with wearing a steel watch on one wrist and a gold bracelet on the other. Now, with a two tone watch, I think I'll look a little more color coordinated. It cost $65 USD plus $9 for Priority Mail (hope they don't "lose" this one too!) and the watch is supposed to regularly retail for $175 USD.

Below is a nice close up of the watch's dial which is described as "white" although it looks silver to me. If I squint my eyes just right, this looks pretty close to the real thing! The advantages of purchasing a Rolex "style" watch like this from a major Japanese manufacturer as opposed to some shady online Rolex replica dealer is that one has a very good chance of actually receiving the ordered item!

a very happy technoguy!
Hello Technoguy,

I viewed your pix with a graphic viewer and enlarged it to get a better look at the last letter. It looks like a "T". Hope that does not mean what you think.

Cheers,

Ed
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technoguy
technoguy

August 10th, 2005, 2:51 pm #5


Well, I returned to the eBay listings and found a similar watch with a
gold tone dial by the same seller which had a much clearer image on my
PC's montior and there is no doubt that there is a large letter "T"
under the 6 o'clock marker!



I wrote the seller late last night concerning this isssue and, just now,
as I am working on this post, received his reply. He says that he does
not know if the watch's luminous paint contains tritium or not, but that
it was shipped promptly yesterday morning. Well, I do appreciate the
speedy shipping.



He also says that I can return the watch after it arrives in accordance
with his return policy if I am dissatisfied with it. That's nice, but I
notice that he charges one a 20% "restocking" fee for any returned
items. That means I would lose out on the cost of shipping both ways
PLUS 20% of the watch's price of $65 USD. Therefore, it would cost ME
$25 to $30 to just LOOK at the timepiece! That's too much in my
opinion, especially since this whole problem could have been avoided if
the watch had been fully described in its auction listing to begin with.



So, this is how the matter stands at the moment. I only thing I can do
to definitively decide this matter is to, as I previously posted, open
the watch under dark room conditions to see if it is glowing. Also, I
can try and contact the manufacturer in Japan with the watch's reference
number and hope they have someone there who knows and speaks enough
English to be able to answer my query.



I think that IF this watch does contain the tritium, then it will be the
LAST time I ever buy another watch with luminous dial paint on it UNLESS
I am DIRECTLY notified by the watch's manufacturer that it is tritium
free or unless it plainly says so ON THE DIAL. One would think that a
customer would not have to go to these lengths to get some simple
information that they require before making a purchase!



technoguy

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RMF
RMF

August 10th, 2005, 3:33 pm #6

Techno, I don’t think its fair to accuse the seller of not fully describing the item. He indicated that the watch contains lumi. I would not expect any watch retailer to specifically represent that a watch is Tritium free unless he knew that absolutely for sure. Furthermore, the percentage of people in the new watch market that really give a $#@% about this issue is, at least for the time being, infinitesimal, so it is not unexpected that the sellers would not make mention of the Tritium issue. While I have seen plenty of ads that boast about the use of newer technologies such as Superluminova or Lumi-brite, I have never seen an ad that specifically stated that the watch "contains no Tritium." And those people that do care about this issue know to look for the “T” on the bottom of the dial, which, if present, puts them on notice that the watch may contain Tritium. The seller has provided a good photo which, at least on my 4 year old lap-top screen, clearly shows the letter “T” on the dial. Its not the seller's fault that your monitor does not provide sufficient resolution to see that there is a letter there that might be a “T,” thereby warranting further inquiry on your part. If you have an expectation that a new watch seller is going to specifically represent that a watch does not contain Tritium, then I do not think your expectation is reasonable.

Suck it up big guy. Maybe you should just turn it around and resell it at a slight price advantage (5 bucks maybe) compared to the other “buy-it-now” listings for the same watch, in which case you might do better then returning it and paying your seller’s restocking fee.
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C.W.
C.W.

August 10th, 2005, 10:21 pm #7

A few posts back I described how whenever I came close to getting my "dream" watch, something would happen that would mess it all up and I would be left, yet again, frustrated and annoyed.

In my previous post I related how I had ordered a new Orient military style watch from a popular cable tv watch show, was assured that it would arrive on a certain date, and then waited and waited and waited only to eventually realize that it had be "lost" by the United States Postal Service.

Well, check out this little item I just found on eBay. It's also an Orient watch with that new photoluminescent paint (Seiko's "LumiBrite"). It's got their 21 jewel, in house movement, but no power reserve indicator. However, it is supposed to be a Rolex "style" watch that seems to be based on their Presidential model. I had issues with wearing a steel watch on one wrist and a gold bracelet on the other. Now, with a two tone watch, I think I'll look a little more color coordinated. It cost $65 USD plus $9 for Priority Mail (hope they don't "lose" this one too!) and the watch is supposed to regularly retail for $175 USD.

Below is a nice close up of the watch's dial which is described as "white" although it looks silver to me. If I squint my eyes just right, this looks pretty close to the real thing! The advantages of purchasing a Rolex "style" watch like this from a major Japanese manufacturer as opposed to some shady online Rolex replica dealer is that one has a very good chance of actually receiving the ordered item!

a very happy technoguy!
nt
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technoguy
technoguy

August 10th, 2005, 11:45 pm #8

Techno, I don’t think its fair to accuse the seller of not fully describing the item. He indicated that the watch contains lumi. I would not expect any watch retailer to specifically represent that a watch is Tritium free unless he knew that absolutely for sure. Furthermore, the percentage of people in the new watch market that really give a $#@% about this issue is, at least for the time being, infinitesimal, so it is not unexpected that the sellers would not make mention of the Tritium issue. While I have seen plenty of ads that boast about the use of newer technologies such as Superluminova or Lumi-brite, I have never seen an ad that specifically stated that the watch "contains no Tritium." And those people that do care about this issue know to look for the “T” on the bottom of the dial, which, if present, puts them on notice that the watch may contain Tritium. The seller has provided a good photo which, at least on my 4 year old lap-top screen, clearly shows the letter “T” on the dial. Its not the seller's fault that your monitor does not provide sufficient resolution to see that there is a letter there that might be a “T,” thereby warranting further inquiry on your part. If you have an expectation that a new watch seller is going to specifically represent that a watch does not contain Tritium, then I do not think your expectation is reasonable.

Suck it up big guy. Maybe you should just turn it around and resell it at a slight price advantage (5 bucks maybe) compared to the other “buy-it-now” listings for the same watch, in which case you might do better then returning it and paying your seller’s restocking fee.
I'm not really mad at the dealer for not stating the type of luminous paint used on the watch I ordered since he stated in an email to me that I am the ONLY person who has ever inquired about this matter. He did tell me that he will be taking my suggestions into consideration on future listings of his luminous watches.

I think I'm really mad at myself for being so eager to finally get a little closer to that elusive "dream" watch I keep looking for, that I did not make the extra effort to verify the nature of what I was buying. The time pressure nature of eBay certainly did not help either.

In the final analysis, I was the one who ASSUMED that the watch would be tritium free because a prior watch I ordered from the same company (i.e., Orient) used the new tritium free photoluminescent paints. Well, as we all know...a false assumption leads to a false conclusion.

I'm also mad because I am frustrated to discover that something I thought I would enjoy for the rest of my life is, by my standards, tainted with something I want to stay as far away from as possible.

I am also angry with the watch industry which I feel is specifically NOT going out of their way to inform the watch buying public of the nature of what they are selling them. I think that they want the consumer to think any kind of luminous paint is the same as any other and all are completely safe. If they actually wanted to help people make informed decisions about the watches they are buying, then they would not put a near microscopic "T" under the 6 which only a watch maker would normally recognize as a symbol for tritium. Rather, they would put a larger and more prominent symbol on the dial that would appear under the manufacturer's log near the 12 o'clock position.

But, if they were to do that, then consumers might start to ask too many questions. Like "What's the difference between the two types of luminous paint?" or "Tritium...what's tritium and why is that added to the paint?" or "Weren't there some tests that showed people wearing tritium containing watches showed a ten fold incraase in the amount of tritium in their urine after wearing the watch for a few hours?" and, finally, "Gee, what could the consequences of a 10 fold increase of tritium in the body be?".

Also, if people started to suspect that the tritium in their watches might be contributing to the ongoing epidemic of cancer sweeping the industrial world, then research into this issue might be stimulated and IF some links were found it could, possibly, lead to some very expensive class action lawsuits against the watch manufacturers.

I have decided to err on the side of caution and treat ALL radio isotope containing timepieces as though they are potentially dangerous although the solid scientific proof of this is still not available. This is a personal choice I have made and I also respect the opinions of anybody who might disagree with me.

technoguy

P.S. I have not yet gotten around to writing Orient watches about this matter...but, I intend to in the near future.
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Ray
Ray

August 11th, 2005, 5:39 am #9

A few posts back I described how whenever I came close to getting my "dream" watch, something would happen that would mess it all up and I would be left, yet again, frustrated and annoyed.

In my previous post I related how I had ordered a new Orient military style watch from a popular cable tv watch show, was assured that it would arrive on a certain date, and then waited and waited and waited only to eventually realize that it had be "lost" by the United States Postal Service.

Well, check out this little item I just found on eBay. It's also an Orient watch with that new photoluminescent paint (Seiko's "LumiBrite"). It's got their 21 jewel, in house movement, but no power reserve indicator. However, it is supposed to be a Rolex "style" watch that seems to be based on their Presidential model. I had issues with wearing a steel watch on one wrist and a gold bracelet on the other. Now, with a two tone watch, I think I'll look a little more color coordinated. It cost $65 USD plus $9 for Priority Mail (hope they don't "lose" this one too!) and the watch is supposed to regularly retail for $175 USD.

Below is a nice close up of the watch's dial which is described as "white" although it looks silver to me. If I squint my eyes just right, this looks pretty close to the real thing! The advantages of purchasing a Rolex "style" watch like this from a major Japanese manufacturer as opposed to some shady online Rolex replica dealer is that one has a very good chance of actually receiving the ordered item!

a very happy technoguy!
Yes sir you can see that little T down there clear as day. Sorry Technoguy but I am sure you will find that watch your looking for some day.
Ray
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technoguy
technoguy

August 11th, 2005, 6:43 am #10

I'm not really mad at the dealer for not stating the type of luminous paint used on the watch I ordered since he stated in an email to me that I am the ONLY person who has ever inquired about this matter. He did tell me that he will be taking my suggestions into consideration on future listings of his luminous watches.

I think I'm really mad at myself for being so eager to finally get a little closer to that elusive "dream" watch I keep looking for, that I did not make the extra effort to verify the nature of what I was buying. The time pressure nature of eBay certainly did not help either.

In the final analysis, I was the one who ASSUMED that the watch would be tritium free because a prior watch I ordered from the same company (i.e., Orient) used the new tritium free photoluminescent paints. Well, as we all know...a false assumption leads to a false conclusion.

I'm also mad because I am frustrated to discover that something I thought I would enjoy for the rest of my life is, by my standards, tainted with something I want to stay as far away from as possible.

I am also angry with the watch industry which I feel is specifically NOT going out of their way to inform the watch buying public of the nature of what they are selling them. I think that they want the consumer to think any kind of luminous paint is the same as any other and all are completely safe. If they actually wanted to help people make informed decisions about the watches they are buying, then they would not put a near microscopic "T" under the 6 which only a watch maker would normally recognize as a symbol for tritium. Rather, they would put a larger and more prominent symbol on the dial that would appear under the manufacturer's log near the 12 o'clock position.

But, if they were to do that, then consumers might start to ask too many questions. Like "What's the difference between the two types of luminous paint?" or "Tritium...what's tritium and why is that added to the paint?" or "Weren't there some tests that showed people wearing tritium containing watches showed a ten fold incraase in the amount of tritium in their urine after wearing the watch for a few hours?" and, finally, "Gee, what could the consequences of a 10 fold increase of tritium in the body be?".

Also, if people started to suspect that the tritium in their watches might be contributing to the ongoing epidemic of cancer sweeping the industrial world, then research into this issue might be stimulated and IF some links were found it could, possibly, lead to some very expensive class action lawsuits against the watch manufacturers.

I have decided to err on the side of caution and treat ALL radio isotope containing timepieces as though they are potentially dangerous although the solid scientific proof of this is still not available. This is a personal choice I have made and I also respect the opinions of anybody who might disagree with me.

technoguy

P.S. I have not yet gotten around to writing Orient watches about this matter...but, I intend to in the near future.
Well, I managed to locate the "official" website for Orient watches over in Japan. Of course, it is in Japanese, but it does have one page in English. There are no contact links on it that I can find, so it looks like they are not into answering queries from international customers.

I've also considered contacting various dealers and providing them with the watch's reference number in the hopes that one of them might have some sort of company catalog that lists the types of luminous paints used on the various models. Most likely, none of them will be able to help, but I may give it a try in the hope that I get lucky.

Aside from the problem of tritium contamination (IMO) of certain of their low end watches, Orient appears to make a really high quality time piece for the money. It's a shame that they are not being widely marketed in the USA, but are found predominantly in the Eastern Asian countries.

technoguy

P.S. If anybody's interested, their offical website is at:

http://www.orient-watch.com/index.html
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