What do you find reasonable to add to your watch in completing a set or restoring it?

Vintage Rolex Discussion

What do you find reasonable to add to your watch in completing a set or restoring it?

Robbe1675
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Robbe1675
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Joined: April 21st, 2007, 10:15 am

February 19th, 2012, 8:54 pm #1

Even though "Papers" (I mean the important Rolex chrono or guarantee papers) are worth a discussion on their own, after the discoveries made some months ago about sole watches without papers turning up on Ebay with a full set of box, papers, and accessoires, I am curious about what is accepted in adding and restoring.
I mean, if you have a sole watch, say a nice 1975 1680, it is nice to add a period box, nobody will argue with that. But adding a booklet from the period? Nice, no argues there!
And adding the tags? Not that big a deal, and they look well in that box.
And adding the anchor? if you already have the other stuff, well why not.
Then you notice that the 93150 was a service replacement, and you start looking for a good 9315. Of course, if you want to make it "original" again. And those luminova hands, swap them!

So far, this is common practice, and is what part of the fun is about.
But:
You started with a sole, modernized watch, and ended with a vintage piece, a full set except for the papers.
I just wonder how many of the full sets offered, started this way. Do people tell about their complementing of the set during a sale, or not? Should they?
Do you care that it might not belong to the watch originally, or not? (Personally I do not care.)
Blank papers then? Even without filling them in, this is a no-go to add, right?

Just curious, because parts and some accessoires have become more valuable than complete watches, so there must be a rising demand....
Robbe
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Joined: September 23rd, 2003, 3:40 pm

February 19th, 2012, 9:31 pm #2

From the collector's viewpoint, adding the correct period accessories to a "loose" watch is very much part of the pleasure of ownership.

An old red Sub. Find a contemporary Submariner booklet. Pick up a minty green stripe box at a watch fair. Snag a 200m anchor from eBay. Plastic wallet with translation paper on VRF market place. Blank chrono cert found at a local Rolex jewellers. Result!!

For me, the problem is when the cerificate is filled in and passed off as being original to the watch.

A watch shown with a nice, complementary set of accessories, is cool.

A watch, being sold with papers and accessories described as "original to the watch", at a premium price, is fraud...

MW
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poormans
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poormans
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Joined: November 2nd, 2005, 8:46 pm

February 19th, 2012, 10:03 pm #3

Even though "Papers" (I mean the important Rolex chrono or guarantee papers) are worth a discussion on their own, after the discoveries made some months ago about sole watches without papers turning up on Ebay with a full set of box, papers, and accessoires, I am curious about what is accepted in adding and restoring.
I mean, if you have a sole watch, say a nice 1975 1680, it is nice to add a period box, nobody will argue with that. But adding a booklet from the period? Nice, no argues there!
And adding the tags? Not that big a deal, and they look well in that box.
And adding the anchor? if you already have the other stuff, well why not.
Then you notice that the 93150 was a service replacement, and you start looking for a good 9315. Of course, if you want to make it "original" again. And those luminova hands, swap them!

So far, this is common practice, and is what part of the fun is about.
But:
You started with a sole, modernized watch, and ended with a vintage piece, a full set except for the papers.
I just wonder how many of the full sets offered, started this way. Do people tell about their complementing of the set during a sale, or not? Should they?
Do you care that it might not belong to the watch originally, or not? (Personally I do not care.)
Blank papers then? Even without filling them in, this is a no-go to add, right?

Just curious, because parts and some accessoires have become more valuable than complete watches, so there must be a rising demand....
Robbe
original papers why bother, i would not as the essential piece is missing

if most of the stuff is there it migth be an idea to ad some missing stuff

like this one

a nice condition 16800 with inner box, papers, paperholder, translation booklet, anchor and serial tags

if i find a resonable priced outerbox and manuals from correct period i would ad them to make it a complete set but thats just because most of the stuff is allready there

adding blank papers and filling them in, to me that is outrigth fraud

cheers
christian





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Joined: January 23rd, 2005, 9:30 pm

February 19th, 2012, 10:28 pm #4

Even though "Papers" (I mean the important Rolex chrono or guarantee papers) are worth a discussion on their own, after the discoveries made some months ago about sole watches without papers turning up on Ebay with a full set of box, papers, and accessoires, I am curious about what is accepted in adding and restoring.
I mean, if you have a sole watch, say a nice 1975 1680, it is nice to add a period box, nobody will argue with that. But adding a booklet from the period? Nice, no argues there!
And adding the tags? Not that big a deal, and they look well in that box.
And adding the anchor? if you already have the other stuff, well why not.
Then you notice that the 93150 was a service replacement, and you start looking for a good 9315. Of course, if you want to make it "original" again. And those luminova hands, swap them!

So far, this is common practice, and is what part of the fun is about.
But:
You started with a sole, modernized watch, and ended with a vintage piece, a full set except for the papers.
I just wonder how many of the full sets offered, started this way. Do people tell about their complementing of the set during a sale, or not? Should they?
Do you care that it might not belong to the watch originally, or not? (Personally I do not care.)
Blank papers then? Even without filling them in, this is a no-go to add, right?

Just curious, because parts and some accessoires have become more valuable than complete watches, so there must be a rising demand....
Robbe
re-engraving anything.









---Perpetual Knowledge---
-Perpetual Knowledge-
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figcar
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figcar
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Joined: August 14th, 2003, 3:20 pm

February 19th, 2012, 11:01 pm #5

Even though "Papers" (I mean the important Rolex chrono or guarantee papers) are worth a discussion on their own, after the discoveries made some months ago about sole watches without papers turning up on Ebay with a full set of box, papers, and accessoires, I am curious about what is accepted in adding and restoring.
I mean, if you have a sole watch, say a nice 1975 1680, it is nice to add a period box, nobody will argue with that. But adding a booklet from the period? Nice, no argues there!
And adding the tags? Not that big a deal, and they look well in that box.
And adding the anchor? if you already have the other stuff, well why not.
Then you notice that the 93150 was a service replacement, and you start looking for a good 9315. Of course, if you want to make it "original" again. And those luminova hands, swap them!

So far, this is common practice, and is what part of the fun is about.
But:
You started with a sole, modernized watch, and ended with a vintage piece, a full set except for the papers.
I just wonder how many of the full sets offered, started this way. Do people tell about their complementing of the set during a sale, or not? Should they?
Do you care that it might not belong to the watch originally, or not? (Personally I do not care.)
Blank papers then? Even without filling them in, this is a no-go to add, right?

Just curious, because parts and some accessoires have become more valuable than complete watches, so there must be a rising demand....
Robbe
in the world of the Pebble Beach Concours D'Elegance...the benchmark for all vintage/classic/anitque car shows in the US.

Disclosure disclosure disclosure. If you restore a watch to 99 points original correctness...you owe a buyer full disclosure of everything you did to the watch to bring it to the state it is in. If the buyer doesn't want that but wants a NIB NOS perfect never been worn example, let them go keep looking.

How does Pebble Beach fit in? Vintage Cars and their movement has been going on long before the vintage watch craze. A friend of mine introduced me to Pebble Beach. He was showing his 1926 1600 Zagato Alfa Romeo. He was also going to race the car in Historic Races that same weekend. Friday night he took it our for a carburator test on the back roads of Monterey...a fuel leak in the carburators caused a fire and the front of the car burned to the ground. He spent the next year restoring the car and it won First in Class at Pebble Beach the next year. Though "originality" trumps "restored" in the vintage car world, when the best example is a restoration...it wins and is fully accepted. Two years later that same friend of mine completed a three year ground up restoration on his 1935 Bugatti...and that year he won Best Of Show.

There is nothing wrong with doing everything you can to bring a vintage watch to original condition, as long as you disclose all the steps taken and the parts added. But for some people, "original" will continue to trump "restored."

John Ireland
Last edited by figcar on February 20th, 2012, 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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munchiew
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munchiew
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Joined: July 25th, 2010, 6:16 am

February 20th, 2012, 12:24 am #6

Having been down the classic cars hobby, I 100% agree. For me, the ranking goes this way,

1] 100% original to the factory item, and 100% condition

2] 100% original, at least 90% condition.

3] 100% condition, with 100% factory replacement parts which are period and item correct

4] 100% orginal, but less than 90% condition; making exception for super rarity, I will not spend good money buying anything less than 75% condition.

Then the rest..but really not for me.

For watches,100% means correctness down to the spring bars, bracelets, ELs etc. everything that is part of the watch as it left the factory. As for box and papers,etc, if they are original to the watch, great,and I would expect to pay an appropriate premium for these, but I would not spend money putting stuff togrhter.
Last edited by munchiew on February 20th, 2012, 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2012, 10:30 am

February 20th, 2012, 12:38 am #7

From the collector's viewpoint, adding the correct period accessories to a "loose" watch is very much part of the pleasure of ownership.

An old red Sub. Find a contemporary Submariner booklet. Pick up a minty green stripe box at a watch fair. Snag a 200m anchor from eBay. Plastic wallet with translation paper on VRF market place. Blank chrono cert found at a local Rolex jewellers. Result!!

For me, the problem is when the cerificate is filled in and passed off as being original to the watch.

A watch shown with a nice, complementary set of accessories, is cool.

A watch, being sold with papers and accessories described as "original to the watch", at a premium price, is fraud...

MW
Yes, this sounds right to me as well. People are prepared to pay a (hefty) premium for pure originalty (been there!), and anything manufactured to create this is clearly a step too far.

Am having fun building up a set around a '66 5513 gilt dial, but would never contemplate getting blank papers and filling them in. That's just plain fraud...

But what about replacement dial / hands from another watch of the same vintage? Say you had a watch with beautiful dial patina and matching hands, but the case was over polished. Is it ok to swap these across to a period original which is in great condition but has had service replacement hands?

Am just starting on my Rolex journey and have never been in that position, but am interested to hear what others think...
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Joined: November 3rd, 2009, 8:57 pm

February 20th, 2012, 1:42 am #8

Even though "Papers" (I mean the important Rolex chrono or guarantee papers) are worth a discussion on their own, after the discoveries made some months ago about sole watches without papers turning up on Ebay with a full set of box, papers, and accessoires, I am curious about what is accepted in adding and restoring.
I mean, if you have a sole watch, say a nice 1975 1680, it is nice to add a period box, nobody will argue with that. But adding a booklet from the period? Nice, no argues there!
And adding the tags? Not that big a deal, and they look well in that box.
And adding the anchor? if you already have the other stuff, well why not.
Then you notice that the 93150 was a service replacement, and you start looking for a good 9315. Of course, if you want to make it "original" again. And those luminova hands, swap them!

So far, this is common practice, and is what part of the fun is about.
But:
You started with a sole, modernized watch, and ended with a vintage piece, a full set except for the papers.
I just wonder how many of the full sets offered, started this way. Do people tell about their complementing of the set during a sale, or not? Should they?
Do you care that it might not belong to the watch originally, or not? (Personally I do not care.)
Blank papers then? Even without filling them in, this is a no-go to add, right?

Just curious, because parts and some accessoires have become more valuable than complete watches, so there must be a rising demand....
Robbe
boxes, booklets and other tchatchkes are O.K. if come with the watch.
I will not go out to get them to complete the package.
Not that important to me. This has to do with marketing not with the watch itself.
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Joined: April 25th, 2008, 11:05 pm

February 20th, 2012, 4:34 am #9

Always a plus to have but not a must for me when owning a piece.....
But I can only imagine an authentic true complete set brings with it amazing bragging rights for the owner......
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Robbe1675
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Robbe1675
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Joined: April 21st, 2007, 10:15 am

February 20th, 2012, 11:29 am #10

in the world of the Pebble Beach Concours D'Elegance...the benchmark for all vintage/classic/anitque car shows in the US.

Disclosure disclosure disclosure. If you restore a watch to 99 points original correctness...you owe a buyer full disclosure of everything you did to the watch to bring it to the state it is in. If the buyer doesn't want that but wants a NIB NOS perfect never been worn example, let them go keep looking.

How does Pebble Beach fit in? Vintage Cars and their movement has been going on long before the vintage watch craze. A friend of mine introduced me to Pebble Beach. He was showing his 1926 1600 Zagato Alfa Romeo. He was also going to race the car in Historic Races that same weekend. Friday night he took it our for a carburator test on the back roads of Monterey...a fuel leak in the carburators caused a fire and the front of the car burned to the ground. He spent the next year restoring the car and it won First in Class at Pebble Beach the next year. Though "originality" trumps "restored" in the vintage car world, when the best example is a restoration...it wins and is fully accepted. Two years later that same friend of mine completed a three year ground up restoration on his 1935 Bugatti...and that year he won Best Of Show.

There is nothing wrong with doing everything you can to bring a vintage watch to original condition, as long as you disclose all the steps taken and the parts added. But for some people, "original" will continue to trump "restored."

John Ireland
The pebble beach cars are all well known specimen in the collectors circles, and when an unknown car turns up, it is looked at with suspicion.
Unknown cars can mean unoriginal cars , or two cars made out of one (Lord Brockett/ Ferrari ...)
But with watches the origin is much less documented, and there were much more (now) interesting watches made than important cars.

The amount of watches "bought from the first owner" is high, and proof is not easily given.
I remember a story about a watch that was "bought from the first pilot-owner" in a sales description, where I owned that watch some years prior.

And on the sales corner there is a watch for sale now without the Rolex papers, but with the original sales receipt.
That would make the origins of any accessoires more convincing to me, the original bill you only keep if you keep all the other things as well in the box.

So it is all about honesty and trusting the seller.
Or healthy suspicion...

Robbe
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