MY FIRST POST (REGARDING 3-COLOR/GOLD PN ROC DIALS)

Vintage Rolex Discussion

MY FIRST POST (REGARDING 3-COLOR/GOLD PN ROC DIALS)

J_Mayer
VRF Member
J_Mayer
VRF Member
Joined: November 8th, 2007, 6:20 pm

November 8th, 2007, 10:09 pm #1

Hi Guys... John Mayer here. Long time reader, first time poster. There are a few people on this board who can vouch for me...

This ROC PN debate is something that I've been involved in for a few months now, and I want to share my thoughts with you. Forgive me for not putting it in the post that's already started but I don't want this conversation to die out.

Let me first say that though we don't know FOR CERTAIN that these watches aren't counterfeit, I think I speak for everyone when I say I sure hope they're not. That would remove some really coveted pieces from the table.

I want to discuss two things. The first is that these dials are probably not counterfeit, and second, it doesn't matter if they're not.
I wish I could tell you why I think these dials are real, but only a dealer who held one of these watches
in the '70s can say for sure. The rest of us CANNOT either. Now for the breakdown:

**WHY THEY'RE PROBABLY NOT COUNTERFEIT**

Ask yourself this - why do all 3-color PN dials ALWAYS sit on watches that ROCs are PERIOD CORRECT on? If someone were counterfeiting these in the late '80s/early '90s,
when there wasn't nearly as much scrutiny by collectors, why weren't ROCs popping up on 6241s 6239s? Did everyone who caught a counterfeit dial share the same
enthusiasm for the minutae of collecting watches? And if you were going to counterfeit a dial, making it look convincing enough to fool people for 20 years, wouldn't
you clone a dial that you knew EXISTED? And wouldn't you keep making them? Why aren't non-PN 6263s magically turning into ROC panda dials? Why aren't these counterfeiters
firing the machine back up? Did they get the dials perfect, make 300 and then shut the operation down?

And in the case of the red Daytona, which Rolex CONFIRMS were made, have you seen any more watches floating out in the world than were reportedly made (8)? Can you
say you can account for the wherabouts of 4 different red dials? of 3? You'd have seen more than 8 if these dials were being knocked off. You have to assume the mindset of
how greed works to understand that it's just not present here.

A word about the distinguishing characteristics of PN dials; identifying the traits that make the dial 100% authentic is not always a way of deeming the watch inauthentic if they're not
present. This is a big problem lately, in my opinion.

Also, NOBODY on this board or beyond can say with certainty what Rolex DID and DIDN'T do. You have to understand manufacturing to get a sense of just how mundane some of these
changes were. If a dial manufacturer sent Rolex 4 different variants to choose from, and Rolex ordered 1000 units of one, they still had 3 other variants in their possession.
It's completely within reason that they would have used these dials on the watches that were sent out. I know it doesn't completely apply here, but it's an example of how much more
we as collectors attach value to everything Rolex did than Rolex themselves.

**WHY IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY'RE NOT AUTHENTIC**

Because Rolex says they are. And so do all the world's most respected collectors. ROC dials are in every major book, have been sold in auction countless times, and have been known
to have service papers with them. (This includes the red Daytona.) I have a service paper from Rolex that states that my red Daytona is authentic. What will it take to deem it inauthentic?
The same thing it would take for a white or black 3-color. A letter from Rolex stating that they're not. If we're all going to think of service papers as added value because it proves
authenticity, then we have to be consistent with that. Otherwise the marketplace should not add a premium for them, and buyers shouldn't believe them.

The same goes for Antiquorum. If you're going to believe that Antiquorum can sell 2 dozen of the same counterfeit watch, then that renders the auction house invalid and you
can no longer charge more for a watch that "went at auction for" a high dollar amount. I'd say to you "yah, but they also sold 3-color ROC dials, so you can't go by that at all." Same
goes for "the book", whether by Patrizzi or Mondani. No more being able to say that something's featured in a book. Because now the service the book was providing - provenance
and value- is null and void.

___

Do the 3-Color and gold ROC dials really exist? Yes. I own several. I've seen them with my own eyes and I count 3 colors. Are they authenticated by Rolex? They have been. That makes
them up to the high standards we all respect and admire about the company when it comes time to sell a piece with a service paper. Okay. Let's review: they exist and Rolex has
serviced (authenticated) and released them from the Rolex building - meeting Rolex's immeasuarably high quality control standards, as the company has extolled for so many years.

Is the dial, on a molecular level, one that was manufactured in 1967? Will we ever know?

Does it really matter?


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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

November 8th, 2007, 10:22 pm #2

...hell of a first post!
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Joined: July 26th, 2004, 1:17 am

November 8th, 2007, 10:44 pm #3

Hi Guys... John Mayer here. Long time reader, first time poster. There are a few people on this board who can vouch for me...

This ROC PN debate is something that I've been involved in for a few months now, and I want to share my thoughts with you. Forgive me for not putting it in the post that's already started but I don't want this conversation to die out.

Let me first say that though we don't know FOR CERTAIN that these watches aren't counterfeit, I think I speak for everyone when I say I sure hope they're not. That would remove some really coveted pieces from the table.

I want to discuss two things. The first is that these dials are probably not counterfeit, and second, it doesn't matter if they're not.
I wish I could tell you why I think these dials are real, but only a dealer who held one of these watches
in the '70s can say for sure. The rest of us CANNOT either. Now for the breakdown:

**WHY THEY'RE PROBABLY NOT COUNTERFEIT**

Ask yourself this - why do all 3-color PN dials ALWAYS sit on watches that ROCs are PERIOD CORRECT on? If someone were counterfeiting these in the late '80s/early '90s,
when there wasn't nearly as much scrutiny by collectors, why weren't ROCs popping up on 6241s 6239s? Did everyone who caught a counterfeit dial share the same
enthusiasm for the minutae of collecting watches? And if you were going to counterfeit a dial, making it look convincing enough to fool people for 20 years, wouldn't
you clone a dial that you knew EXISTED? And wouldn't you keep making them? Why aren't non-PN 6263s magically turning into ROC panda dials? Why aren't these counterfeiters
firing the machine back up? Did they get the dials perfect, make 300 and then shut the operation down?

And in the case of the red Daytona, which Rolex CONFIRMS were made, have you seen any more watches floating out in the world than were reportedly made (8)? Can you
say you can account for the wherabouts of 4 different red dials? of 3? You'd have seen more than 8 if these dials were being knocked off. You have to assume the mindset of
how greed works to understand that it's just not present here.

A word about the distinguishing characteristics of PN dials; identifying the traits that make the dial 100% authentic is not always a way of deeming the watch inauthentic if they're not
present. This is a big problem lately, in my opinion.

Also, NOBODY on this board or beyond can say with certainty what Rolex DID and DIDN'T do. You have to understand manufacturing to get a sense of just how mundane some of these
changes were. If a dial manufacturer sent Rolex 4 different variants to choose from, and Rolex ordered 1000 units of one, they still had 3 other variants in their possession.
It's completely within reason that they would have used these dials on the watches that were sent out. I know it doesn't completely apply here, but it's an example of how much more
we as collectors attach value to everything Rolex did than Rolex themselves.

**WHY IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY'RE NOT AUTHENTIC**

Because Rolex says they are. And so do all the world's most respected collectors. ROC dials are in every major book, have been sold in auction countless times, and have been known
to have service papers with them. (This includes the red Daytona.) I have a service paper from Rolex that states that my red Daytona is authentic. What will it take to deem it inauthentic?
The same thing it would take for a white or black 3-color. A letter from Rolex stating that they're not. If we're all going to think of service papers as added value because it proves
authenticity, then we have to be consistent with that. Otherwise the marketplace should not add a premium for them, and buyers shouldn't believe them.

The same goes for Antiquorum. If you're going to believe that Antiquorum can sell 2 dozen of the same counterfeit watch, then that renders the auction house invalid and you
can no longer charge more for a watch that "went at auction for" a high dollar amount. I'd say to you "yah, but they also sold 3-color ROC dials, so you can't go by that at all." Same
goes for "the book", whether by Patrizzi or Mondani. No more being able to say that something's featured in a book. Because now the service the book was providing - provenance
and value- is null and void.

___

Do the 3-Color and gold ROC dials really exist? Yes. I own several. I've seen them with my own eyes and I count 3 colors. Are they authenticated by Rolex? They have been. That makes
them up to the high standards we all respect and admire about the company when it comes time to sell a piece with a service paper. Okay. Let's review: they exist and Rolex has
serviced (authenticated) and released them from the Rolex building - meeting Rolex's immeasuarably high quality control standards, as the company has extolled for so many years.

Is the dial, on a molecular level, one that was manufactured in 1967? Will we ever know?

Does it really matter?

I can follow your logic and I can see where Rolex Service and/or authentication is important but we do have to remember that Rolex themselves have made some clear mistakes, ie servicing watches with bad aftermarket dials. Or that sometimes a dial that has been refinished will still be service by Rolex since the dial is considered an "original" without attention to the refinishing part..

As for the Antiquorum.. that is a different story..

I am always a believer of doing your homework no matter who it comes from... Half of the fun is the learning part..

Anyway, nice to see you here...



http://www.DoubleRedSeaDweller.com
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J_Mayer
VRF Member
J_Mayer
VRF Member
Joined: November 8th, 2007, 6:20 pm

November 8th, 2007, 10:59 pm #4

...but we're not talking about one watch with a refinished dial. This is a large number of watches that have been widely accepted in the marketplace for years. There's a difference. I'm a fan of the homework as well...

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thesharkman
thesharkman

November 8th, 2007, 11:56 pm #5

Hi Guys... John Mayer here. Long time reader, first time poster. There are a few people on this board who can vouch for me...

This ROC PN debate is something that I've been involved in for a few months now, and I want to share my thoughts with you. Forgive me for not putting it in the post that's already started but I don't want this conversation to die out.

Let me first say that though we don't know FOR CERTAIN that these watches aren't counterfeit, I think I speak for everyone when I say I sure hope they're not. That would remove some really coveted pieces from the table.

I want to discuss two things. The first is that these dials are probably not counterfeit, and second, it doesn't matter if they're not.
I wish I could tell you why I think these dials are real, but only a dealer who held one of these watches
in the '70s can say for sure. The rest of us CANNOT either. Now for the breakdown:

**WHY THEY'RE PROBABLY NOT COUNTERFEIT**

Ask yourself this - why do all 3-color PN dials ALWAYS sit on watches that ROCs are PERIOD CORRECT on? If someone were counterfeiting these in the late '80s/early '90s,
when there wasn't nearly as much scrutiny by collectors, why weren't ROCs popping up on 6241s 6239s? Did everyone who caught a counterfeit dial share the same
enthusiasm for the minutae of collecting watches? And if you were going to counterfeit a dial, making it look convincing enough to fool people for 20 years, wouldn't
you clone a dial that you knew EXISTED? And wouldn't you keep making them? Why aren't non-PN 6263s magically turning into ROC panda dials? Why aren't these counterfeiters
firing the machine back up? Did they get the dials perfect, make 300 and then shut the operation down?

And in the case of the red Daytona, which Rolex CONFIRMS were made, have you seen any more watches floating out in the world than were reportedly made (8)? Can you
say you can account for the wherabouts of 4 different red dials? of 3? You'd have seen more than 8 if these dials were being knocked off. You have to assume the mindset of
how greed works to understand that it's just not present here.

A word about the distinguishing characteristics of PN dials; identifying the traits that make the dial 100% authentic is not always a way of deeming the watch inauthentic if they're not
present. This is a big problem lately, in my opinion.

Also, NOBODY on this board or beyond can say with certainty what Rolex DID and DIDN'T do. You have to understand manufacturing to get a sense of just how mundane some of these
changes were. If a dial manufacturer sent Rolex 4 different variants to choose from, and Rolex ordered 1000 units of one, they still had 3 other variants in their possession.
It's completely within reason that they would have used these dials on the watches that were sent out. I know it doesn't completely apply here, but it's an example of how much more
we as collectors attach value to everything Rolex did than Rolex themselves.

**WHY IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY'RE NOT AUTHENTIC**

Because Rolex says they are. And so do all the world's most respected collectors. ROC dials are in every major book, have been sold in auction countless times, and have been known
to have service papers with them. (This includes the red Daytona.) I have a service paper from Rolex that states that my red Daytona is authentic. What will it take to deem it inauthentic?
The same thing it would take for a white or black 3-color. A letter from Rolex stating that they're not. If we're all going to think of service papers as added value because it proves
authenticity, then we have to be consistent with that. Otherwise the marketplace should not add a premium for them, and buyers shouldn't believe them.

The same goes for Antiquorum. If you're going to believe that Antiquorum can sell 2 dozen of the same counterfeit watch, then that renders the auction house invalid and you
can no longer charge more for a watch that "went at auction for" a high dollar amount. I'd say to you "yah, but they also sold 3-color ROC dials, so you can't go by that at all." Same
goes for "the book", whether by Patrizzi or Mondani. No more being able to say that something's featured in a book. Because now the service the book was providing - provenance
and value- is null and void.

___

Do the 3-Color and gold ROC dials really exist? Yes. I own several. I've seen them with my own eyes and I count 3 colors. Are they authenticated by Rolex? They have been. That makes
them up to the high standards we all respect and admire about the company when it comes time to sell a piece with a service paper. Okay. Let's review: they exist and Rolex has
serviced (authenticated) and released them from the Rolex building - meeting Rolex's immeasuarably high quality control standards, as the company has extolled for so many years.

Is the dial, on a molecular level, one that was manufactured in 1967? Will we ever know?

Does it really matter?

i can see your view, but if a RSC can service and send out a bogus milsub, what does that say about its credence as an authority of vintage rolex watches?

<* shark >>><
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Joined: January 26th, 2005, 9:18 am

November 9th, 2007, 12:01 am #6

Hi Guys... John Mayer here. Long time reader, first time poster. There are a few people on this board who can vouch for me...

This ROC PN debate is something that I've been involved in for a few months now, and I want to share my thoughts with you. Forgive me for not putting it in the post that's already started but I don't want this conversation to die out.

Let me first say that though we don't know FOR CERTAIN that these watches aren't counterfeit, I think I speak for everyone when I say I sure hope they're not. That would remove some really coveted pieces from the table.

I want to discuss two things. The first is that these dials are probably not counterfeit, and second, it doesn't matter if they're not.
I wish I could tell you why I think these dials are real, but only a dealer who held one of these watches
in the '70s can say for sure. The rest of us CANNOT either. Now for the breakdown:

**WHY THEY'RE PROBABLY NOT COUNTERFEIT**

Ask yourself this - why do all 3-color PN dials ALWAYS sit on watches that ROCs are PERIOD CORRECT on? If someone were counterfeiting these in the late '80s/early '90s,
when there wasn't nearly as much scrutiny by collectors, why weren't ROCs popping up on 6241s 6239s? Did everyone who caught a counterfeit dial share the same
enthusiasm for the minutae of collecting watches? And if you were going to counterfeit a dial, making it look convincing enough to fool people for 20 years, wouldn't
you clone a dial that you knew EXISTED? And wouldn't you keep making them? Why aren't non-PN 6263s magically turning into ROC panda dials? Why aren't these counterfeiters
firing the machine back up? Did they get the dials perfect, make 300 and then shut the operation down?

And in the case of the red Daytona, which Rolex CONFIRMS were made, have you seen any more watches floating out in the world than were reportedly made (8)? Can you
say you can account for the wherabouts of 4 different red dials? of 3? You'd have seen more than 8 if these dials were being knocked off. You have to assume the mindset of
how greed works to understand that it's just not present here.

A word about the distinguishing characteristics of PN dials; identifying the traits that make the dial 100% authentic is not always a way of deeming the watch inauthentic if they're not
present. This is a big problem lately, in my opinion.

Also, NOBODY on this board or beyond can say with certainty what Rolex DID and DIDN'T do. You have to understand manufacturing to get a sense of just how mundane some of these
changes were. If a dial manufacturer sent Rolex 4 different variants to choose from, and Rolex ordered 1000 units of one, they still had 3 other variants in their possession.
It's completely within reason that they would have used these dials on the watches that were sent out. I know it doesn't completely apply here, but it's an example of how much more
we as collectors attach value to everything Rolex did than Rolex themselves.

**WHY IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY'RE NOT AUTHENTIC**

Because Rolex says they are. And so do all the world's most respected collectors. ROC dials are in every major book, have been sold in auction countless times, and have been known
to have service papers with them. (This includes the red Daytona.) I have a service paper from Rolex that states that my red Daytona is authentic. What will it take to deem it inauthentic?
The same thing it would take for a white or black 3-color. A letter from Rolex stating that they're not. If we're all going to think of service papers as added value because it proves
authenticity, then we have to be consistent with that. Otherwise the marketplace should not add a premium for them, and buyers shouldn't believe them.

The same goes for Antiquorum. If you're going to believe that Antiquorum can sell 2 dozen of the same counterfeit watch, then that renders the auction house invalid and you
can no longer charge more for a watch that "went at auction for" a high dollar amount. I'd say to you "yah, but they also sold 3-color ROC dials, so you can't go by that at all." Same
goes for "the book", whether by Patrizzi or Mondani. No more being able to say that something's featured in a book. Because now the service the book was providing - provenance
and value- is null and void.

___

Do the 3-Color and gold ROC dials really exist? Yes. I own several. I've seen them with my own eyes and I count 3 colors. Are they authenticated by Rolex? They have been. That makes
them up to the high standards we all respect and admire about the company when it comes time to sell a piece with a service paper. Okay. Let's review: they exist and Rolex has
serviced (authenticated) and released them from the Rolex building - meeting Rolex's immeasuarably high quality control standards, as the company has extolled for so many years.

Is the dial, on a molecular level, one that was manufactured in 1967? Will we ever know?

Does it really matter?

nt
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Joined: May 7th, 2006, 5:02 pm

November 9th, 2007, 12:52 am #7

Hi Guys... John Mayer here. Long time reader, first time poster. There are a few people on this board who can vouch for me...

This ROC PN debate is something that I've been involved in for a few months now, and I want to share my thoughts with you. Forgive me for not putting it in the post that's already started but I don't want this conversation to die out.

Let me first say that though we don't know FOR CERTAIN that these watches aren't counterfeit, I think I speak for everyone when I say I sure hope they're not. That would remove some really coveted pieces from the table.

I want to discuss two things. The first is that these dials are probably not counterfeit, and second, it doesn't matter if they're not.
I wish I could tell you why I think these dials are real, but only a dealer who held one of these watches
in the '70s can say for sure. The rest of us CANNOT either. Now for the breakdown:

**WHY THEY'RE PROBABLY NOT COUNTERFEIT**

Ask yourself this - why do all 3-color PN dials ALWAYS sit on watches that ROCs are PERIOD CORRECT on? If someone were counterfeiting these in the late '80s/early '90s,
when there wasn't nearly as much scrutiny by collectors, why weren't ROCs popping up on 6241s 6239s? Did everyone who caught a counterfeit dial share the same
enthusiasm for the minutae of collecting watches? And if you were going to counterfeit a dial, making it look convincing enough to fool people for 20 years, wouldn't
you clone a dial that you knew EXISTED? And wouldn't you keep making them? Why aren't non-PN 6263s magically turning into ROC panda dials? Why aren't these counterfeiters
firing the machine back up? Did they get the dials perfect, make 300 and then shut the operation down?

And in the case of the red Daytona, which Rolex CONFIRMS were made, have you seen any more watches floating out in the world than were reportedly made (8)? Can you
say you can account for the wherabouts of 4 different red dials? of 3? You'd have seen more than 8 if these dials were being knocked off. You have to assume the mindset of
how greed works to understand that it's just not present here.

A word about the distinguishing characteristics of PN dials; identifying the traits that make the dial 100% authentic is not always a way of deeming the watch inauthentic if they're not
present. This is a big problem lately, in my opinion.

Also, NOBODY on this board or beyond can say with certainty what Rolex DID and DIDN'T do. You have to understand manufacturing to get a sense of just how mundane some of these
changes were. If a dial manufacturer sent Rolex 4 different variants to choose from, and Rolex ordered 1000 units of one, they still had 3 other variants in their possession.
It's completely within reason that they would have used these dials on the watches that were sent out. I know it doesn't completely apply here, but it's an example of how much more
we as collectors attach value to everything Rolex did than Rolex themselves.

**WHY IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY'RE NOT AUTHENTIC**

Because Rolex says they are. And so do all the world's most respected collectors. ROC dials are in every major book, have been sold in auction countless times, and have been known
to have service papers with them. (This includes the red Daytona.) I have a service paper from Rolex that states that my red Daytona is authentic. What will it take to deem it inauthentic?
The same thing it would take for a white or black 3-color. A letter from Rolex stating that they're not. If we're all going to think of service papers as added value because it proves
authenticity, then we have to be consistent with that. Otherwise the marketplace should not add a premium for them, and buyers shouldn't believe them.

The same goes for Antiquorum. If you're going to believe that Antiquorum can sell 2 dozen of the same counterfeit watch, then that renders the auction house invalid and you
can no longer charge more for a watch that "went at auction for" a high dollar amount. I'd say to you "yah, but they also sold 3-color ROC dials, so you can't go by that at all." Same
goes for "the book", whether by Patrizzi or Mondani. No more being able to say that something's featured in a book. Because now the service the book was providing - provenance
and value- is null and void.

___

Do the 3-Color and gold ROC dials really exist? Yes. I own several. I've seen them with my own eyes and I count 3 colors. Are they authenticated by Rolex? They have been. That makes
them up to the high standards we all respect and admire about the company when it comes time to sell a piece with a service paper. Okay. Let's review: they exist and Rolex has
serviced (authenticated) and released them from the Rolex building - meeting Rolex's immeasuarably high quality control standards, as the company has extolled for so many years.

Is the dial, on a molecular level, one that was manufactured in 1967? Will we ever know?

Does it really matter?

...with a good strong POV backed up by some serious expertise. You make some excellent points for sure.

Let me just preface my reply by saying I sure as hell do not have any answers on this issue and similarly I have not made up my mind one way or the other. Like you, I only wish Rolex would be more helpful on issues like these but that ain't gonna happen so we collectors (using that term very broadly here to include dealer/collectors, as well) are left to figure it out for ourselves. That is both the fun and frustration of Vintage Rolex, as I'm sure you're well aware.

Now to the points you make...

First off and just to clarify, AFAIK all 6241s & 6239s are pump pusher Cosmos, so they would never have an "OYSTER" dial of any kind of layout because Rolex did not put "OYSTER" on any Daytona dials until the screw down pusher era...although I'm sure there are pretty good fakes of those non-Oyster dials, as well. In any case, we can give any potential counterfeiter the benefit of the doubt and say he knows his Rolex minutiae and did not willy-nilly make ROC dials and stick them in non-Oyster Cosmographs (and he may have just made the dials; someone else may have put them in the actual watch, maybe without knowing their provenance at all). If these dials are fake, they were designed to fool the best in the business. And if they are fake, they have been doing that for a long time.

Since there are, of course, 3-color pump pusher PN dials (non-"OYSTER" text), it would be relatively easy for a counterfeiter to use those as a template when "creating" a 3-color OYSTER dial. Not saying they did that, just hypothesizing on where a forger could get his instruction manual and inspiration. And since white ROC PN dials have not been thrown under the bus in this authenticity debate, that would be another place where a forger could look for inspiration.

A perfect illustration of these distinct dials is this photo from the Archive of a 6241 w/3-color black non-Oyster PN dial and a 6263 w/2-color white ROC PN dial:



(photo by Anonymous)

Now if, as the doubters would have it, Rolex never made a 3-color ROC PN dial, well that would make it pretty rare, right? I mean if you could have all that lovely red on a PN dial and have it in a screw down pusher case, that would make it the ne plus ultra of Newmans, wouldn't it? We Rolex fiends love a bit of red on a dial after all. I think we have our forger's motivation to make a dial that never existed (if the forger of ROC dials exists himself, of course).

As for why he didn't keep making such sophisticated copies (if they were indeed not manufactured by Rolex), I can only posit that they wanted the market for PNs to remain strong and not flood it with so many "new" dials that the value of PNs would plummet. Art forgers try not to release too many "new" Monets on the market, I imagine.

I really have no idea about the Red "Ferrari" PN dials other than the fact that so many people in this hobby that I respect do not like them. I have never heard that Rolex has confirmed that they made 8 of these "prototype"/special order red dials. Can you elaborate on this contention?

I would add that Rolex does not really do dial authentication, so we have to take the fact that these Red PNs were "authenticated by Rolex" with a big grain of salt. As long as the back of the dial is correct for the watch and the rest of the watch is correct, as well, Rolex does not really care what's on the front. In that regard, I think it is highly plausible that authentic non-PN Daytona dials could have been used in making exceptionally high quality re-dialed counterfeit PNs that could fool even Rolex or the most savvy dealer or collector. A small sacrifice for the huge premium a PN would fetch over a standard Daytona, not to mention the premium a limited edition of 8 Red PNs in the world might (and did) achieve.

I agree with you 100% that comparing two styles of Rolex dials to each other does not really prove anything. There are so many legitimate variations (Mark I, II, III, IV, etc) that one could easily draw a false conclusion due to the inconsistencies between examples. As you have probably read below, the proponents of the "fake ROC dials theory" maintain that all authentic PN dial printing--white/black, 2-color/3-color, Oyster/non-Oyster, SS/Gold--never changed from 1964 until 1986. This would be because the supposed run of true PN dials would have been so short (1-2 years in the late 60s thru early 70s?) and demand so remarkably limited that there would be no possibility of variation. I have no way of knowing if that is true or not, nor the chronology of actual production, and so for me this issue remains open. It could well be that the disputed ROC dials were made in a quick and dirty fashion differently and later than the original PNs and without the authenticating features that everyone looks for. Again I sure don't know and my mind is really quite open. As I have stated previously, either the disputed ROC dials are all legit or they are all non-Rolex because they are identical to each other in terms of printing despite the color variations.

Your last point is really interesting and sort of metaphysical really. If the painting in the museum that the art experts and artist's family agree is a Picasso was not actually painted by Picasso, does it really matter in the scheme of things? I don't know but I'd sure rather have the painting Picasso did paint. Wouldn't you?

Thanks again for such a great, thought-provoking first post and I hope you'll continue to contribute to the VRF on this and all the other debates that make Vintage Rolex such a damn addictive pursuit.

All the best,
Tom

P.S. Regarding Antiquorum, I wouldn't rely on them as the arbiter of authenticity. For example,
they have sold variations of this counterfeit Explorer-dial Submariner (maybe it is even the same damn watch?!?) several different times:



http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalog.h ... tionid=163

http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalog.h ... ctionid=74

http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalog.h ... tionid=131



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Joined: December 22nd, 2005, 10:09 pm

November 9th, 2007, 1:18 am #8

Hi Guys... John Mayer here. Long time reader, first time poster. There are a few people on this board who can vouch for me...

This ROC PN debate is something that I've been involved in for a few months now, and I want to share my thoughts with you. Forgive me for not putting it in the post that's already started but I don't want this conversation to die out.

Let me first say that though we don't know FOR CERTAIN that these watches aren't counterfeit, I think I speak for everyone when I say I sure hope they're not. That would remove some really coveted pieces from the table.

I want to discuss two things. The first is that these dials are probably not counterfeit, and second, it doesn't matter if they're not.
I wish I could tell you why I think these dials are real, but only a dealer who held one of these watches
in the '70s can say for sure. The rest of us CANNOT either. Now for the breakdown:

**WHY THEY'RE PROBABLY NOT COUNTERFEIT**

Ask yourself this - why do all 3-color PN dials ALWAYS sit on watches that ROCs are PERIOD CORRECT on? If someone were counterfeiting these in the late '80s/early '90s,
when there wasn't nearly as much scrutiny by collectors, why weren't ROCs popping up on 6241s 6239s? Did everyone who caught a counterfeit dial share the same
enthusiasm for the minutae of collecting watches? And if you were going to counterfeit a dial, making it look convincing enough to fool people for 20 years, wouldn't
you clone a dial that you knew EXISTED? And wouldn't you keep making them? Why aren't non-PN 6263s magically turning into ROC panda dials? Why aren't these counterfeiters
firing the machine back up? Did they get the dials perfect, make 300 and then shut the operation down?

And in the case of the red Daytona, which Rolex CONFIRMS were made, have you seen any more watches floating out in the world than were reportedly made (8)? Can you
say you can account for the wherabouts of 4 different red dials? of 3? You'd have seen more than 8 if these dials were being knocked off. You have to assume the mindset of
how greed works to understand that it's just not present here.

A word about the distinguishing characteristics of PN dials; identifying the traits that make the dial 100% authentic is not always a way of deeming the watch inauthentic if they're not
present. This is a big problem lately, in my opinion.

Also, NOBODY on this board or beyond can say with certainty what Rolex DID and DIDN'T do. You have to understand manufacturing to get a sense of just how mundane some of these
changes were. If a dial manufacturer sent Rolex 4 different variants to choose from, and Rolex ordered 1000 units of one, they still had 3 other variants in their possession.
It's completely within reason that they would have used these dials on the watches that were sent out. I know it doesn't completely apply here, but it's an example of how much more
we as collectors attach value to everything Rolex did than Rolex themselves.

**WHY IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY'RE NOT AUTHENTIC**

Because Rolex says they are. And so do all the world's most respected collectors. ROC dials are in every major book, have been sold in auction countless times, and have been known
to have service papers with them. (This includes the red Daytona.) I have a service paper from Rolex that states that my red Daytona is authentic. What will it take to deem it inauthentic?
The same thing it would take for a white or black 3-color. A letter from Rolex stating that they're not. If we're all going to think of service papers as added value because it proves
authenticity, then we have to be consistent with that. Otherwise the marketplace should not add a premium for them, and buyers shouldn't believe them.

The same goes for Antiquorum. If you're going to believe that Antiquorum can sell 2 dozen of the same counterfeit watch, then that renders the auction house invalid and you
can no longer charge more for a watch that "went at auction for" a high dollar amount. I'd say to you "yah, but they also sold 3-color ROC dials, so you can't go by that at all." Same
goes for "the book", whether by Patrizzi or Mondani. No more being able to say that something's featured in a book. Because now the service the book was providing - provenance
and value- is null and void.

___

Do the 3-Color and gold ROC dials really exist? Yes. I own several. I've seen them with my own eyes and I count 3 colors. Are they authenticated by Rolex? They have been. That makes
them up to the high standards we all respect and admire about the company when it comes time to sell a piece with a service paper. Okay. Let's review: they exist and Rolex has
serviced (authenticated) and released them from the Rolex building - meeting Rolex's immeasuarably high quality control standards, as the company has extolled for so many years.

Is the dial, on a molecular level, one that was manufactured in 1967? Will we ever know?

Does it really matter?

Great way to introduce your self, killer post..
G
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clifW
VRF Member
clifW
VRF Member
Joined: August 10th, 2005, 5:50 am

November 9th, 2007, 1:33 am #9

Hi Guys... John Mayer here. Long time reader, first time poster. There are a few people on this board who can vouch for me...

This ROC PN debate is something that I've been involved in for a few months now, and I want to share my thoughts with you. Forgive me for not putting it in the post that's already started but I don't want this conversation to die out.

Let me first say that though we don't know FOR CERTAIN that these watches aren't counterfeit, I think I speak for everyone when I say I sure hope they're not. That would remove some really coveted pieces from the table.

I want to discuss two things. The first is that these dials are probably not counterfeit, and second, it doesn't matter if they're not.
I wish I could tell you why I think these dials are real, but only a dealer who held one of these watches
in the '70s can say for sure. The rest of us CANNOT either. Now for the breakdown:

**WHY THEY'RE PROBABLY NOT COUNTERFEIT**

Ask yourself this - why do all 3-color PN dials ALWAYS sit on watches that ROCs are PERIOD CORRECT on? If someone were counterfeiting these in the late '80s/early '90s,
when there wasn't nearly as much scrutiny by collectors, why weren't ROCs popping up on 6241s 6239s? Did everyone who caught a counterfeit dial share the same
enthusiasm for the minutae of collecting watches? And if you were going to counterfeit a dial, making it look convincing enough to fool people for 20 years, wouldn't
you clone a dial that you knew EXISTED? And wouldn't you keep making them? Why aren't non-PN 6263s magically turning into ROC panda dials? Why aren't these counterfeiters
firing the machine back up? Did they get the dials perfect, make 300 and then shut the operation down?

And in the case of the red Daytona, which Rolex CONFIRMS were made, have you seen any more watches floating out in the world than were reportedly made (8)? Can you
say you can account for the wherabouts of 4 different red dials? of 3? You'd have seen more than 8 if these dials were being knocked off. You have to assume the mindset of
how greed works to understand that it's just not present here.

A word about the distinguishing characteristics of PN dials; identifying the traits that make the dial 100% authentic is not always a way of deeming the watch inauthentic if they're not
present. This is a big problem lately, in my opinion.

Also, NOBODY on this board or beyond can say with certainty what Rolex DID and DIDN'T do. You have to understand manufacturing to get a sense of just how mundane some of these
changes were. If a dial manufacturer sent Rolex 4 different variants to choose from, and Rolex ordered 1000 units of one, they still had 3 other variants in their possession.
It's completely within reason that they would have used these dials on the watches that were sent out. I know it doesn't completely apply here, but it's an example of how much more
we as collectors attach value to everything Rolex did than Rolex themselves.

**WHY IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY'RE NOT AUTHENTIC**

Because Rolex says they are. And so do all the world's most respected collectors. ROC dials are in every major book, have been sold in auction countless times, and have been known
to have service papers with them. (This includes the red Daytona.) I have a service paper from Rolex that states that my red Daytona is authentic. What will it take to deem it inauthentic?
The same thing it would take for a white or black 3-color. A letter from Rolex stating that they're not. If we're all going to think of service papers as added value because it proves
authenticity, then we have to be consistent with that. Otherwise the marketplace should not add a premium for them, and buyers shouldn't believe them.

The same goes for Antiquorum. If you're going to believe that Antiquorum can sell 2 dozen of the same counterfeit watch, then that renders the auction house invalid and you
can no longer charge more for a watch that "went at auction for" a high dollar amount. I'd say to you "yah, but they also sold 3-color ROC dials, so you can't go by that at all." Same
goes for "the book", whether by Patrizzi or Mondani. No more being able to say that something's featured in a book. Because now the service the book was providing - provenance
and value- is null and void.

___

Do the 3-Color and gold ROC dials really exist? Yes. I own several. I've seen them with my own eyes and I count 3 colors. Are they authenticated by Rolex? They have been. That makes
them up to the high standards we all respect and admire about the company when it comes time to sell a piece with a service paper. Okay. Let's review: they exist and Rolex has
serviced (authenticated) and released them from the Rolex building - meeting Rolex's immeasuarably high quality control standards, as the company has extolled for so many years.

Is the dial, on a molecular level, one that was manufactured in 1967? Will we ever know?

Does it really matter?

Either it existed during the period in question or it didn't. I can see your point with Rolex saying "they did" so that should make them real...............not for me unfortunately.............they have been wrong before. When I'm spending bundles of cash, either it is.............or isn't PERIOD. There is no grey area for me or I don't get my checkbook out. So they should&nbsp;"molecularly" be right as well to justify the money being spent on them

It will be interesting to get K's take of the "story behind the story"

&nbsp;

Not to break your balls John, but just because one does his homework and&nbsp;dives headfirst into buying these with tons of money, heart and soul does not mean there weren't Shenanigans going on in&nbsp;80's until the dawn of mainstream internet. A father and son duo in Italy comes to mind.........explorer dials..........you get the picture


_______________________


Clif












Last edited by clifW on November 9th, 2007, 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NV
Joined: September 21st, 2003, 2:31 am

November 9th, 2007, 1:51 am #10

Hi Guys... John Mayer here. Long time reader, first time poster. There are a few people on this board who can vouch for me...

This ROC PN debate is something that I've been involved in for a few months now, and I want to share my thoughts with you. Forgive me for not putting it in the post that's already started but I don't want this conversation to die out.

Let me first say that though we don't know FOR CERTAIN that these watches aren't counterfeit, I think I speak for everyone when I say I sure hope they're not. That would remove some really coveted pieces from the table.

I want to discuss two things. The first is that these dials are probably not counterfeit, and second, it doesn't matter if they're not.
I wish I could tell you why I think these dials are real, but only a dealer who held one of these watches
in the '70s can say for sure. The rest of us CANNOT either. Now for the breakdown:

**WHY THEY'RE PROBABLY NOT COUNTERFEIT**

Ask yourself this - why do all 3-color PN dials ALWAYS sit on watches that ROCs are PERIOD CORRECT on? If someone were counterfeiting these in the late '80s/early '90s,
when there wasn't nearly as much scrutiny by collectors, why weren't ROCs popping up on 6241s 6239s? Did everyone who caught a counterfeit dial share the same
enthusiasm for the minutae of collecting watches? And if you were going to counterfeit a dial, making it look convincing enough to fool people for 20 years, wouldn't
you clone a dial that you knew EXISTED? And wouldn't you keep making them? Why aren't non-PN 6263s magically turning into ROC panda dials? Why aren't these counterfeiters
firing the machine back up? Did they get the dials perfect, make 300 and then shut the operation down?

And in the case of the red Daytona, which Rolex CONFIRMS were made, have you seen any more watches floating out in the world than were reportedly made (8)? Can you
say you can account for the wherabouts of 4 different red dials? of 3? You'd have seen more than 8 if these dials were being knocked off. You have to assume the mindset of
how greed works to understand that it's just not present here.

A word about the distinguishing characteristics of PN dials; identifying the traits that make the dial 100% authentic is not always a way of deeming the watch inauthentic if they're not
present. This is a big problem lately, in my opinion.

Also, NOBODY on this board or beyond can say with certainty what Rolex DID and DIDN'T do. You have to understand manufacturing to get a sense of just how mundane some of these
changes were. If a dial manufacturer sent Rolex 4 different variants to choose from, and Rolex ordered 1000 units of one, they still had 3 other variants in their possession.
It's completely within reason that they would have used these dials on the watches that were sent out. I know it doesn't completely apply here, but it's an example of how much more
we as collectors attach value to everything Rolex did than Rolex themselves.

**WHY IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY'RE NOT AUTHENTIC**

Because Rolex says they are. And so do all the world's most respected collectors. ROC dials are in every major book, have been sold in auction countless times, and have been known
to have service papers with them. (This includes the red Daytona.) I have a service paper from Rolex that states that my red Daytona is authentic. What will it take to deem it inauthentic?
The same thing it would take for a white or black 3-color. A letter from Rolex stating that they're not. If we're all going to think of service papers as added value because it proves
authenticity, then we have to be consistent with that. Otherwise the marketplace should not add a premium for them, and buyers shouldn't believe them.

The same goes for Antiquorum. If you're going to believe that Antiquorum can sell 2 dozen of the same counterfeit watch, then that renders the auction house invalid and you
can no longer charge more for a watch that "went at auction for" a high dollar amount. I'd say to you "yah, but they also sold 3-color ROC dials, so you can't go by that at all." Same
goes for "the book", whether by Patrizzi or Mondani. No more being able to say that something's featured in a book. Because now the service the book was providing - provenance
and value- is null and void.

___

Do the 3-Color and gold ROC dials really exist? Yes. I own several. I've seen them with my own eyes and I count 3 colors. Are they authenticated by Rolex? They have been. That makes
them up to the high standards we all respect and admire about the company when it comes time to sell a piece with a service paper. Okay. Let's review: they exist and Rolex has
serviced (authenticated) and released them from the Rolex building - meeting Rolex's immeasuarably high quality control standards, as the company has extolled for so many years.

Is the dial, on a molecular level, one that was manufactured in 1967? Will we ever know?

Does it really matter?

Wonderful post. I've never traded in vintage Daytonas, PN or otherwise, but I've followed this ongoing debate with interest. I think your points arguing against counterfeiting are pretty persuasive.

By the way, we have a mutual friend in Tommy Smeltzer... he's mentioned your collecting to me several times. Welcome to VRF. It's a great board.

Best,

Ned Vaughn
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